This has been making the rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

i agree 100 percent with penn. I've known several atheists over the years who hate the fact that some christains proselytize, and I've always defended them, because I mean.. they think that most of the world is going to hell, they are just trying to help you. It may annoy you, but I mean, you should take it as a complement that they want to save your soul.

Penn is a good magician, but constantly shows that he's not much of an intellectual. His truck analogy is certainly a bad one. Sure, if somebody sees a truck bearing down on me I hope they would be kind enough to warn me, but if they're constantly warning me about invisible trucks that will torture me after I die, I would start to get annoyed and question their beliefs.

His main point was that this man was a "good man." Okay, I'll take Penn's message that Christians are sometimes nice people (this was not a debate), and a long time ago I in fact told a story here about a guy who used the WWJD mantra on me when I thanked him for being so kind, and how that affected me. But just because somebody is a really nice, good, sane person, it doesn't mean Christianity is responsible.

i Don't think he was making that point at all.

What point was he making?

Of all celebrities who open their mouth in public, Penn Gillette seems to be correct the most. He is always intelligent and thoughtful, he's not afraid to admit that life is complicated and confusing and often has shades of gray.

To answer the question "what point is he making", the point is that being a good person overrides any divisions we have on the specifics of our belief system, and that we should search for the good in the world instead of finding people who agree with us. Also, he just appreciated that there are people that nice out there.

I had seen his video about a Jewish man's first bacon about a month ago, that's pretty cool, too. He seems like he's be a fun person to hang out with.

Also, I read an article about him once that said he had a custom hot tub built with a special seat for the ladies with a feature that rhymes with "sit bet" for between their legs.

Jesus, take the wheel!

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First, it's not a complement to you because 1. it really has nothing to do with you and 2. given their belief they should be proselytizing to everyone, even especially those who are in need of saving, i.e. the worst people.

Second, the fact that their belief requires them to perform certain actions does not make those actions respectable. Sure, they'd be inconsistent with their belief if they didn't, but the value of consistency relates to what exactly you are being consistent with. Sorry for getting to godwin's law so fast, but I don't praise a Nazi because they think they are trying to help the world out by purging it of jews. Pretty much everyone thinks they are doing the right thing -- that doesn't mean that they are.

I do like Penn though and generally agree with most of what he says in the video.

That the guy who approached him was nice. That not all christians suck. That christanity can be flawed, and cause many bad things, but it's followers can be very good people. That atheists shouldn't get so offended about Proselytizing.

huh?

Point being it's not really a compliment to be thought of as someone whose life needs saving. In fact, it can be a bit insulting.

That's not what I was pointing out. You implied in what I bolded that the people that 'especially' need saving are the 'worst' people. This confuses the Christian in me.

Seems to me the people most in need of that teaching are the ones who are most lacking compassion, kindness, self-sacrifice, etc.

So if they get help..that's a bad thing because we are pointing out that they are lacking?

And actually everyone is in need of that teaching.

Well, you're trying to imprint your own values onto a christian. A certain kind of Christian, thinks ALL non believers are going to hell. There aren't degrees of going to hell. So it doesn't matter if you're the nicest, sweetest guy, or an amoral sociopath, you are both going to hell. Everyone who hasn't taking jesus christ as their own personal lord and savior needs that teaching the most, according to their mind.

fyp

same difference.

My only point was that having a christian think you need christianity is not some kind of compliment. From a christian point of view everyone should be worth saving.




Yeah well that's kind of why I disagreed with you that it was some kind of compliment for them to want to proselytize to you. They do it to everyone.

(but I do think there are many christians who will agree that a guy who lives with the same values of jesus is doing better than some selfish bastard even though he may not have accepted the terminology of christianity.

I happen to have similar values to Jesus except unlike him I rejected my parent's Judaism. I think there are plenty of religious people who recognize that its much more important to live and act compassionately and wholesomely than it is to pledge allegiance to some entity or to believe unscientific theories about the origin of life. )

maybe complement was the wrong word. Maybe I meant, they are trying to give you a gift.

if that's what their goal is, I'd like to take this opportunity to let all the christians know that I'd prefer Cheese of the Month Club to their book.

where in the bible does it say that people who don't believe in jesus are going to hell?

no



John 14:6

and Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

Let me get this straight, it's really not important whether someone lives a good life and is good to those around him. It only matters if he believes in supernatural entities.

I doubt Jesus would have agreed with that.

lol


I have no better response than to say that you are incorrect. The only reason Jesus came to Earth was to die for people and have them believe in him. So you're incorrect.

And I have no better response than to say that you are incorrect. Jesus was a wise religious man 2000 years ago and his followers founded a religion based on his teachings. He was a human being the same as anybody else, he was just a great teacher and thinker, and his brutal martyrdom made his followers love and remember him all the more.


Neither you or I has given evidence, or could in fact prove to the other one that one of us is correct and the other is mistaken.

do you see the discrepancy?

Sounds to me like he was picking a fight but I'm no Theologist.

I found the link to be boring.

Why does Gillette think that anyone would be interested?

Pretentious, arrogant, self-important.

Akin to Bill Maher and Michael Moore.

You're right, he was saying that and it's a fine point to make. I guess his truck analogy just miffed me. Also how it took him 5 minutes to tell a 2 minute story.

See I have always had a problem with this too. My mother in law honestly believes I am going to Hell. Even though I have been baptized and i can honestly say lives my life moral and ethically as equal or better than most Christians I have ever met.

apparently people are, because he has one of the most watched you tube channels around.

True, but most people are idiots.

Check out the Octomom coverage.

I think Penn says is infinitely more interesting that the octomom coverage.

I think Penn is often interesting, funny, articulate, iconoclastic. The octomom is a car wreck. I'd take the pepsi challege on the average IQ of a Penn Says viewer over an Octomom viewer.

Also you ask "why would he think anyone would be interested" and then, when confronted with the fact that, yes, many people are interested in what he has to say, you say " well people are just stupid". Next time try saying " I am not interested", rather than " why would anyone be interested" because people clearly are.


And, why does anyone start a youtube channel, or a blog, or write anything online? IT's to communicate ideas. Sometimes there's an audience for it, and some times there's not, but I think the ease to which you can communicate is the very best thing about the internet. Millions of people across the country do a variant of what Penn is doing on Youtube, and only a tiny fraction of them have a bigger audience. I don't think it makes any of them (necessarily) pretentious, arrogant and self-important. (though, in fairness, Penn is probably all of those things, but he's also a lot more).

But like wakefield said he took too long, kept rubbing his head and such. Needs an editor.

LOL well, you get what you pay for.

I'm sorry to say that I find this totally absurd. If that's why he came, how selfish and petty.

I was trying to be generous to Christianity by supposing that the purpose was to inspire people to live a good life.



Yeah I mean it seems to me that hell is the direct consequence of living a harmful life -- you become guilt-ridden and unhappy. If you are flourishing and wholesome then you have already avoided hell in my view.

nope, you can go back to hating Christianity.

Tim, you should sit this one out. I wasn't even talking about any of this.

I see where you see the discrepancy. Not spending eternity with God is what you should define as hell.



I have no problem believing this... and that's sad. But if it makes any difference, these 'Christians' probably aren't.



As usual, I agree with BigD.

you're view is now minority. the majority of christians these days believe you are saved by being a "good" parson and/or that there are "many paths" to god besides
necessarily accepting jesus. they've been forced into that position because anyone being intellectually honest with themselves can see the obvious logical absurdity
of traditional fundamentalist interpretations of the bible.

I 100% agree with you, at least up until you started sharing your opinions. Luckily, God isn't a democracy.

Yeah, because then he would exist.

touche!

i could see this.

Well, I agree it's not great literary or artistic value. These "Penn Says" things are him coming down from his show, and he just rambles on about whatever he happens to be thinking about at that moment. They are not pre-scripted or edited. So yeah, they aren't great cinema or anything.

What's interesting is the number of intelligent things he can say off-the-cuff like that; I'd like to see any other modern celebrity, either in the entertainment or political field, discuss such a wide variety of topics so frequently without scripting.

I can think of a few who could do it, but not many.

I can honestly say that I don't know 1 single Christian that believes a word of this. Not sure which group of Christians you've been hanging out with.

This is from 2008 but in the article, it mentions a poll taken by the Pew forum that found "57% of evangelical christians were willing to accept that theirs might not be the only path to salvation."

Also from the article "if one isolates the most "traditionalist" members of the white Evangelical group, 50% still agreed that other faiths might offer a path to eternal life. In fact, of the dozens of denominations covered by the Pew survey, it was only Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who answered in the majority that their own faith was the only way to eternal life."

Time Article

This, pretty much. But also, Penn's magic act is one of the "smartest" acts in entertainment, so it shouldn't come as a huge surprise. I wish he still had his radio show.

You're blind then. The word 'Christian' has evolved.

The "word" Christian may have evolved in some "Christian" circles (which is pure crap imo), but Christ hasn't. Just because some of his "followers" may have "evolved" doesn't mean he's changed. He's the same today as he was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. His message and his purpose don't change, no matter what some "Christians" may believe. But i'm sure I'll be called unenlightened so whatever.