3/6 live game, quite a bit of action. Player directly to my right (seat 4) is solid, taggish; everybody else is pretty much just plain bad. Guy to my left in seat 6 was a bit of a maniac, but I don't think that was really relevant in this hand. I'll try to recreate the action as well as I can here.

Hero UTG+1 and is dealt A Q

Preflop: UTG raises, Hero 3bets, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG caps, everyone calls

Flop (20 small bets): A 9 2
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls

Turn (12 big bets) Q
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB calls, 2 folds, UTG 3bets, Hero calls (reluctantly), SB calls.

River (21 big bets) T
UTG bets, Hero calls, SB calls


I'm especially interested in thoughts on pre-flop and turn play in this hand.

Preflop: I doubt I'm 3 betting with AQ off in UTG+1 against a raise from UTG from solid TAG player, especially if your table is as full stations as it seems to be

Turn: No good way to play two pair...Don't mind the raise on the turn but i'm thinking with his 3 bet on the turn your beat by a set 9's or maybe even A's of Q's but less likely

Think maybe you could have saved yourself some trouble by raising on the flop to get a better idea of his hand range

I'm very curious as to what in the world SB has..guess he's just donating?

I don't think SB ever showed anything down, but I think I remember putting him on a flush draw during the hand.

I'm curious since you don't like 3-betting pre-flop if you would cold-call or fold. I think I can make an argument for folding if we think that UTG is sufficiently tight in his raising range, I don't think I can make an argument for cold-calling since we put ourselves in a position where we're playing a potentially dominated hand for two bets in a likely multi-way pot and out of position. IMO, 3-betting gives us a chance to thin the field (and maybe get HU if we're lucky), which is definitely preferrable in this scenario.

I could live with folding this preflop for sure...but actually i don't think it is too bad to cold call here pre based on the style of table i perceive you to be playing at for several reasons

1) You say your table is overall bad with lots of action: My experience with this type is 3 betting in your position really doesn't get much respect with lots of loose players acting behind you: If they look down and see 2 cards they like, they are going to play regardless

2) Knowing this, you have to suspect your going to get at least one call behind you even with the 3 bet: And all this 3 bet does is create a bigger pot with you out of position with a mediocre hand

3) If we suspect we are behind the initial UTG raiser we are going to have to out flop them so really no need to build a bigger pot with the 3 bet

4) If your table is loose passive- you really don't have to worry about a 3 bet coming behind you preflop if you cold call....and if it happens, then it is really and easy fold

So here based on the table and my position I think it is acceptable to cold call.

Actually I think cold call, fold, or 3 bet are all acceptable plays here but I just like to discuss contrast of styles of how I would have played it pre.
Usually with bad players I like to see lots of flops cheap in pos and am only really 3 betting pre in early pos with AKs (sometimes), KK, AA... then maybe a slightly wider range in later pos

But I also don't play that much limit, so i could be a complete tard lol

Dated, I know, but doesn't SSHE say to fold AQo to an UTG open? The fact that he's a TAG could change things a bit, mind you. If I do play this hand, I am 3-betting preflop.

The flop is interesting. After the cap, it's kinda wa/wb, but there's also 3 people behind us complicating things. Since the pot is so big, we can't really protect anything, and raising opens us up to being 3-bet by UTG, or anyone behind us who flopped big, specifically a set. So, while it sucks to have tpgk in a capped pot 5 ways on a semi-drawy board, I think calling is best.

I raise/call down from the turn, like you.

Basically, I think folding pf should be considered, if not, I play it the same.

This is one of the big reasons why I posted this hand. IIRC, SSHE does tell us to fold AQo in this position. I felt that UTG was sufficiently TAG that I could make an argument for 3-betting him and trying to get the post shorthanded. However, against most players at the table, I probably would have folded this to a raise and I think that the argument can be made that I should have folded it no matter what.

AQo is dead to a TAGs UTG raising range in a live 3/6 game. even though you are taking it to three and making the pot bigger almost nobody will be folding the flop badly enough to make this good.

I think this is a fold. And your argument sounds backwards to me. I'd want to isolate against a player with a crappy hand. Does this TAG fold way too much after the flop?

I guess the point that I was trying to make is this. Against a standard loose/passive, their raising range is sufficiently small that AQo is an easy fold. Against a more TAG player, his raising range is going to be wider and AQo might play well against that range, especially if we can get it HU.

when hes in the hijack and you're on the button, yea. not here.

preflop is bad for obvious reasons stated. a TAG's utg range is killing AQo
if table is this loose you could call, but it's probably better to fold

why are you not capping the turn? he has AK a ton here.
99s probably dont cap preflop when it's multiway
QQ probably doesnt bet this flop.
AA might even slowplay, though it would be stupid on this table.

Besides, that's 2 combos total that beat us. it's much more likely that he has the other AQ or AK

if he has 99 well that sucks but youre losing a ton of value not capping the turn, esp w SB sticking around

have you played much live? its different from online. a 3bet on the turn means a much stronger hand live. a lot of players wouldn't do it without a set here.

ive played plenty live, and with all kinds of players. this guy is described as TAG, which means he could be making this with AK or AQ.
Younger players tend to be more aggressive, while older players tend to be a lot more passive. but ive seen lots of players go the opposite way.

are we really that scared of the other two Aces or the other two Queens? two hand combos total?

sure he could have 99 but more passiveish players dont cap 99 preflop. so if hes aggro enough to have 99 here he could easily have AK/AQ too. especially something like AK

This guy had AQ crushed like 90% of the time that he 3-bets this turn. Sometimes when you're playing live, you just know. This was one of those times. In hindsight, I'm pretty sure folding pre-flop was the way to go in this hand.

picking up a vibe or tell from a player is pretty good piece of info we could use.

looking at the hand objectively, you're behind 2 hands (and thats if he bets QQ on this flop). if you think he'll cap 99 preflop, then you're behind 5 hands.

you beat 8 combos of AK, plus another AJ of hearts, splitting with 4 combos of AQ, plus whatever the SB has.

folding preflop is definitely the best way to go, tho, against a TAG player

I don't think the type of person who won't cap 99 pf will cap AK. AK is more likely to be capped, yes, but so many people hate putting money in with that hand because "it's a drawing hand"... etc.

So did he have A-A or Q-Q? BTW, I think you played the hand pretty good. You had the right idea preflop, the cards just came down in a way to make it look like a bad decision.

Yeah, he had AA. Pre-flop, it was definitely raise or fold IMO...and in hindsight I'm pretty sure folding is much better. Other than that, I don't think I really could have done anything differently.

So, I'm curious...

A. fold in the sense that anyone else at the table is an idiot and you should try avoid the only other good player at the table unless you know you have a better hand?

or

B. fold in the sense that this guy is so tight that he would only raise with group-1 hands?

Actually, probably a little from column A, a little from column B. SSHE says to fold AQo against a raise in this game. The fact is, it doesn't really play that well multi-way and we're not really giving up an edge from folding it to a raise. At the time, I think I got caught up in the idea that this was a good enough player that AQ could be ahead of his raising range. In hindsight and in reality I think it may not have been and folding would have been better. It's probably still relatively close and I'm sure my thoughts on the hand are colored by the results.

I think more often than not if you can 3-bet and isolate the only player at the table who can fold a missed flop you're +EV especially if you believe his range is groups 1-3 in this spot. He's going to miss the flop most of the time, he'll check, you'll bet and he's probably going to fold AK, AQ, KQ, etc. If not you still have position.

but how often are we isolating at a table full of loose players? the only thing going for us is we can face most of them with 3 cold, but even so we still got 3 other callers.

a big leak in my game, and id guess a lot of people's game, is attempting to isolate with weaker hands than a normal 3bet range when you have close to no hope of actually isolating the players.

Isolating at loose passive games, in early position, is a leak, imho.

Just play value hands, that hold up fine multiway, as well has shorter handed.

If he's getting 3 callers after 3-betting on a regular basis then ya, I would think twice about 3-betting here. I guess there are different levels of "just plain bad". My interpretation of that was probably "online" bad, which seems to be way better than "live" bad.

this is very true, especially at low stakes live. ive seen people limp in over two limpers with AKs.

I'm going to toss in a different vote than I've seen here: cold call PF.

I personally never 3bet an UTG raiser from UTG+1, even with AA, as it defines my hand too strongly. Yes AQo is probably behind the range as a whole, but there are plenty of hands that a good TAG should be opening UTG shorthanded that AQ is still ahead of.

The UTG opening range for 6max for TAGs is {QTs+, QJo, KTs+, KJo+, 77+, AJ+}
Live I understand this may be different, but I'm never folding AQ preflop in shorthanded limit.

This is full ring.

I played a live session of full ring 10/20 at Port Perry a couple weeks ago for the first time in a long time and this is very true.

One example was where under the gun limped and I raised next with AQ and 5 of us saw the flop which was A 7 5 rainbow. The limper bet into me and I raised and we were now heads up and he instant 3 bet me. I really really wanted to fold my hand right there but couldn't do it. Q on the turn and I only called him since everything about him was screaming that he loved his hand. If the Q doesn't hit I might have folded on the turn. River was a blank and I paid off his bet and he showed me 55.

Online I would have lost more bets on the turn for sure.

1) I can't believe that this hand has garnered so much discussion...guess LHE isn't completely dead yet.

2) I like that Bob chimed in here and what he talked about is precisely why I really prefer playing live, I feel like it's often easier to know where you are.

i did almost the same thing live once. i raised with kq and got a bunch of callers. the flop came kq7. i bet and everybody folded except some lady. turn was a low card i bet and she raised. i just called her down. some people are just so obvious live.