http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/16/buffal...ding/index.html
That's just horrible.
Full Version: This Seems Like A Very Bad Way To Convince Me..
what rest?
"He launched Bridges TV, billed as the first English-language cable channel targeting Muslims inside the United States, in 2004. At the time, Hassan said he hoped the network would balance negative portrayals of Muslims following the attacks of September 11, 2001."
Something tells me he has done slightly more harm than good to the Muslim image. It's a shame.
Something tells me he has done slightly more harm than good to the Muslim image. It's a shame.
QUOTE (Avaron @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:28 AM) 
what rest?
I hope when people read this they don't just focus on the fact that a Muslim has beheaded his wife. That's the sensational headline stuff that small minds and ignorance will focus on.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 5:41 AM)
I hope when people read this they don't just focus on the fact that a Muslim has beheaded his wife. That's the sensational headline stuff that small minds and ignorance will focus on.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
Violence against women
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 4:18 AM)
Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 5:18 AM)
If there is one thing I learned from this... it's that all muslims are seriously crazy.
QUOTE (brvheart @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 9:35 AM)
If there is one thing I learned from this... it's that all muslims are seriously crazy.
I think it's also now pretty obvious that all of islam teaches violence.
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 6:41 AM)
I hope when people read this they don't just focus on the fact that a Muslim has beheaded his wife. That's the sensational headline stuff that small minds and ignorance will focus on.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
That's the focus, Bob. Who said it wasn't?
That being said, to ignore the religous angle is just dishonest. It's fun to sugarcoat it and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and calling me small minded doesn't win the battle, it just makes you the first to fire below the belt.
QUOTE (Nimue1995 @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 6:33 AM)
Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
Huh?
QUOTE (Nimue1995 @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:33 AM)
Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
Lol.... if 15th century "Christianity" was around right now I would have no problem calling it what it is. What you are basically saying is Muslim fundamentalist get a walk because someone else was bad years ago. Interesting.
QUOTE (Balloon guy @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:57 AM)
Huh?
Or, this.
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 6:41 AM)
I hope when people read this they don't just focus on the fact that a Muslim has beheaded his wife. That's the sensational headline stuff that small minds and ignorance will focus on.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
The deeper story and one that people should focus on is the fact that in many places in the World a woman is viewed more as her Husband's property than she is as a person in her own right. This is a cultural issue and not a religious one. This story could have been about a Hindu or a Sikh originally from India as it could be a Muslim. I know most people don't know the difference since they all look like terrorists to them.
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. The thing that I take when I read stories like this is how sad it is no matter who the victim or the killer is.
Some of this. ^^^^^^^
QUOTE (Balloon guy @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:01 AM)
Truth. ^^^^^^^^
QUOTE (Nimue1995 @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:33 AM)
Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
Maybe it's better stated that Muslim fundamentalism is in the same place IT was in the 15th century. Or the 7th.
QUOTE (brvheart @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:35 AM)
If there is one thing I learned from this... it's that all muslims are seriously crazy.
Many. Not all. If I were a thinking Muslim though, I'd have serious second thoughts about my belief system.
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:55 AM)
That's the focus, Bob. Who said it wasn't? That being said, to ignore the religous angle is just dishonest. It's fun to sugarcoat it and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and calling me small minded doesn't win the battle, it just makes you the first to fire below the belt.
And this.
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 9:55 AM)
That's the focus, Bob. Who said it wasn't?
That being said, to ignore the religious angle is just dishonest. It's fun to sugarcoat it and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and calling me small minded doesn't win the battle, it just makes you the first to fire below the belt.
That being said, to ignore the religious angle is just dishonest. It's fun to sugarcoat it and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and calling me small minded doesn't win the battle, it just makes you the first to fire below the belt.
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 11:01 AM)
Many. Not all. If I were a thinking Muslim though, I'd have serious second thoughts about my belief system.
The thing is that it's much more a cultural issue than a Religious one. The thought process that dehumanizes Women sweeps across all religions in certain regions but due to the anti-Muslim political climate that is current we choose to focus on the religious aspect when it`s a Muslim.
While it's true that Religion and Culture are intertwined I would argue that the negative aspects of some cultures have infected Islam and used Religion as an excuse for their anti-Women attitudes and actions.
I guess the fact that I'm from Toronto and have friends from many different religions and cultures makes me more sensitive to the subtle differences between things.
One of my best friends is a devout Muslim. He's been on the Haj to Mecca, he prays daily and attends his Mosque and only eats Halal.His wife and daughters do not wear bee keepers outfits or even veils. Islam doesn't actually require those things but cultural influences in many parts of the Muslim World have confused the issue by making it a religious issue when it actually isn't.
Now it's true that religion and culture are intertwined but it`s important to understand the difference.
QUOTE (brvheart @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:35 AM)
If there is one thing I learned from this... it's that all muslims are seriously crazy.
QUOTE (Sal Paradise @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 7:42 AM)
I think it's also now pretty obvious that all of islam teaches violence.
yeah... and christians never kill people...
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 8:23 AM)
The thing is that it's much more a cultural issue than a Religious one. The thought process that dehumanizes Women sweeps across all religions in certain regions but due to the anti-Muslim political climate that is current we choose to focus on the religious aspect when it`s a Muslim.
While it's true that Religion and Culture are intertwined I would argue that the negative aspects of some cultures have infected Islam and used Religion as an excuse for their anti-Women attitudes and actions.
I guess the fact that I'm from Toronto and have friends from many different religions and cultures makes me more sensitive to the subtle differences between things.
One of my best friends is a devout Muslim. He's been on the Haj to Mecca, he prays daily and attends his Mosque and only eats Halal.His wife and daughters do not wear bee keepers outfits or even veils. Islam doesn't actually require those things but cultural influences in many parts of the Muslim World have confused the issue by making it a religious issue when it actually isn't.
Now it's true that religion and culture are intertwined but it`s important to understand the difference.
While it's true that Religion and Culture are intertwined I would argue that the negative aspects of some cultures have infected Islam and used Religion as an excuse for their anti-Women attitudes and actions.
I guess the fact that I'm from Toronto and have friends from many different religions and cultures makes me more sensitive to the subtle differences between things.
One of my best friends is a devout Muslim. He's been on the Haj to Mecca, he prays daily and attends his Mosque and only eats Halal.His wife and daughters do not wear bee keepers outfits or even veils. Islam doesn't actually require those things but cultural influences in many parts of the Muslim World have confused the issue by making it a religious issue when it actually isn't.
Now it's true that religion and culture are intertwined but it`s important to understand the difference.
I disagree. Religion and culture are not only intertwined - religion is culture. In north america we live in a largely secular society where religion is simply an aspect of culture, but in many parts of the world your religion largely determines most of the customs and values in your life from what you eat to how you dress. The fact is that mulsim culture has not made the same advances in the arena of women's rights as the rest of the world, and that much of that is attributable to the religion and the way religious rules are followed.
I really don't understand why people are so intent on defending Islam. The fact is that the religion contains some pretty insidious ideologies. There is a pressure to have a politically correct "Islam is good, it's just been corrupted by a small minority" view, but that is rested on a faulty assumption - that all religions are good, equally healthy sets of ideas, and it is quite convincingly betrayed by evidence.
Of course there are muslims who have loose interpretations and many muslims are good people (and I'm friends with many of them, etc etc). But all ideologies are not created equal. This one happens to have some pretty dangerous memes in it.
This beheading story is not particularly important for how women are treated since its one crazy guy; what is worse is what is happening in western Pakistan where the Taliban have just been given the right to impose religious law.
Mohammed himself had had 13 wives. Sets kind of a different example from Jesus or the Buddha.
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 1:41 PM)
That being said Domestic Violence and misogyny are not only in those communities but also in every community and this story could just as easily been about Joe Six Pack shooting his wife. .
Sorry, but to suggest (which is how I read this sentence) that the level of misogyny is the same in Muslim countries as it is in Western countries, is ridiculous.
QUOTE (James D @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 11:35 AM)
Sorry, but to suggest (which is how I read this sentence) that the level of misogyny is the same in Muslim countries as it is in Western countries, is ridiculous.
not at all. we just call it "old-fashioned image of the family".
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 9:23 AM)
The thing is that it's much more a cultural issue than a Religious one. The thought process that dehumanizes Women sweeps across all religions in certain regions but due to the anti-Muslim political climate that is current we choose to focus on the religious aspect when it`s a Muslim.
While it's true that Religion and Culture are intertwined I would argue that the negative aspects of some cultures have infected Islam and used Religion as an excuse for their anti-Women attitudes and actions.
I guess the fact that I'm from Toronto and have friends from many different religions and cultures makes me more sensitive to the subtle differences between things.
One of my best friends is a devout Muslim. He's been on the Haj to Mecca, he prays daily and attends his Mosque and only eats Halal.His wife and daughters do not wear bee keepers outfits or even veils. Islam doesn't actually require those things but cultural influences in many parts of the Muslim World have confused the issue by making it a religious issue when it actually isn't.
Now it's true that religion and culture are intertwined but it`s important to understand the difference.
While it's true that Religion and Culture are intertwined I would argue that the negative aspects of some cultures have infected Islam and used Religion as an excuse for their anti-Women attitudes and actions.
I guess the fact that I'm from Toronto and have friends from many different religions and cultures makes me more sensitive to the subtle differences between things.
One of my best friends is a devout Muslim. He's been on the Haj to Mecca, he prays daily and attends his Mosque and only eats Halal.His wife and daughters do not wear bee keepers outfits or even veils. Islam doesn't actually require those things but cultural influences in many parts of the Muslim World have confused the issue by making it a religious issue when it actually isn't.
Now it's true that religion and culture are intertwined but it`s important to understand the difference.
Somebody already covered this but when it comes to this, Religion is the culture. I agree with you, in that I know people who practice watered down versions and when shown what is actually taught deny that it exists, much like say, a christian who continues to be a drunkard, but the fact is the watered down version is as worthy of death as anything else to the true believer.
QUOTE (vbnautilus @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 12:42 PM)
I disagree. Religion and culture are not only intertwined - religion is culture. In north america we live in a largely secular society where religion is simply an aspect of culture, but in many parts of the world your religion largely determines most of the customs and values in your life from what you eat to how you dress. The fact is that mulsim culture has not made the same advances in the arena of women's rights as the rest of the world, and that much of that is attributable to the religion and the way religious rules are followed.
I really don't understand why people are so intent on defending Islam. The fact is that the religion contains some pretty insidious ideologies. There is a pressure to have a politically correct "Islam is good, it's just been corrupted by a small minority" view, but that is rested on a faulty assumption - that all religions are good, equally healthy sets of ideas, and it is quite convincingly betrayed by evidence.
Of course there are Muslims who have loose interpretations and many Muslims are good people (and I'm friends with many of them, etc etc). But all ideologies are not created equal. This one happens to have some pretty dangerous memes in it.
This beheading story is not particularly important for how women are treated since its one crazy guy; what is worse is what is happening in western Pakistan where the Taliban have just been given the right to impose religious law.
Mohammed himself had had 13 wives. Sets kind of a different example from Jesus or the Buddha.
I really don't understand why people are so intent on defending Islam. The fact is that the religion contains some pretty insidious ideologies. There is a pressure to have a politically correct "Islam is good, it's just been corrupted by a small minority" view, but that is rested on a faulty assumption - that all religions are good, equally healthy sets of ideas, and it is quite convincingly betrayed by evidence.
Of course there are Muslims who have loose interpretations and many Muslims are good people (and I'm friends with many of them, etc etc). But all ideologies are not created equal. This one happens to have some pretty dangerous memes in it.
This beheading story is not particularly important for how women are treated since its one crazy guy; what is worse is what is happening in western Pakistan where the Taliban have just been given the right to impose religious law.
Mohammed himself had had 13 wives. Sets kind of a different example from Jesus or the Buddha.
There is no question that culture and religion are intertwined. Being misogynist and having crazy ideas about how women are valued in a place like India for example crosses all religions. Where people are poor and uneducated their culture has developed a mindset that Women are their Husband's and Family's property and this leads to things like honor killings.
The fact that this is as true with poor Hindus in many places as it is for Muslims is the point I'm making. It isn't just an Islamic issue but one of the culture that had developed in large parts of the World. Education and economic development are the ways that these attitudes slowly change.
I'm not trying to defend the whack jobs in Islam who like all religious extremists I hate with a passion. Unfortunately those whack jobs have a very loud voice and a very willing audience for their crap.
QUOTE (James D @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 1:35 PM)
Sorry, but to suggest (which is how I read this sentence) that the level of misogyny is the same in Muslim countries as it is in Western countries, is ridiculous.
That wasn't my point at all. See above and I hope I've explained it a bit better.
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 2:16 PM)
Somebody already covered this but when it comes to this, Religion is the culture. I agree with you, in that I know people who practice watered down versions and when shown what is actually taught deny that it exists, much like say, a christian who continues to be a drunkard, but the fact is the watered down version is as worthy of death as anything else to the true believer.
There are more Muslims in the World who view things like my friend and the people at his Mosque do than the extremists that you are confusing with true Islam.
There are more Muslims in Indonesia for example than any other country in the World and they aren't raging Taliban. A country like Turkey has 70 million Muslims in it.
I guess my main point is that Women are treated like crap in a large swath of the World. A lot of that region is Islamic but not all of it and the general culture of that region is as much to blame as the form of Islam that is taught there since Women are also often treated in the same way by other religions. Also there are large parts of the Islamic World where Women aren't treated that same way.
I just have to say (and not necessarily in relation to this thread, it just made me think of it) FCP Bob is one of the most under-rated posters in these discussions. Even when I disagree with him, his ideas are well thought out and totally defensible.
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 12:04 PM)
There is no question that culture and religion are intertwined. Being misogynist and having crazy ideas about how women are valued in a place like India for example crosses all religions. Where people are poor and uneducated their culture has developed a mindset that Women are their Husband's and Family's property and this leads to things like honor killings.
The fact that this is as true with poor Hindus in many places as it is for Muslims is the point I'm making. It isn't just an Islamic issue but one of the culture that had developed in large parts of the World. Education and economic development are the ways that these attitudes slowly change.
I'm not trying to defend the whack jobs in Islam who like all religious extremists I hate with a passion. Unfortunately those whack jobs have a very loud voice and a very willing audience for their crap.
The fact that this is as true with poor Hindus in many places as it is for Muslims is the point I'm making. It isn't just an Islamic issue but one of the culture that had developed in large parts of the World. Education and economic development are the ways that these attitudes slowly change.
I'm not trying to defend the whack jobs in Islam who like all religious extremists I hate with a passion. Unfortunately those whack jobs have a very loud voice and a very willing audience for their crap.
But my point is that it is not just the "whack jobs" and extremists in Islam who have this value. Across muslim countries the rights of women correlate pretty well with the extent to which the religion is incorporated as law (compare Saudi Arabia -> Turkey e.g.). In other words, this value is built in to the philosophy of the religion and one needn't be an extremist to absorb it. Add to that the fact that the religion has mechanisms within it to make it more likely that it is not secularized and you have a problem.
No one thinks that Islam has a monopoly on treating women badly, but it does need to accept the responsibility for having that as a part of its value system. It is not a fringe extremist twist on the culture, it's in there.
QUOTE (hblask @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 12:33 PM)
I just have to say (and not necessarily in relation to this thread, it just made me think of it) FCP Bob is one of the most under-rated posters in these discussions. Even when I disagree with him, his ideas are well thought out and totally defensible.
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
I agree with this completely.
QUOTE (hblask @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 1:33 PM)
I just have to say (and not necessarily in relation to this thread, it just made me think of it) FCP Bob is one of the most under-rated posters in these discussions. Even when I disagree with him, his ideas are well thought out and totally defensible.
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......
banhammer one time!
Let's not let these types of stories and discussions take us away from the simple fact that Men > women
It's science
QUOTE (vbnautilus @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 1:43 PM)
I agree with this completely.
Thirded.
QUOTE (Balloon guy @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 2:29 PM)
Let's not let these types of stories and discussions take us away from the simple fact that Men > women
It's science
It's science
Global warming science or actual science?
QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 5:33 PM)
Global warming science or actual science?
kentucky science.
http://www.creationmuseum.org/
edit: 21.95 for a one day pass? at a museum? now, that's sacrilege.
Avaron, or FCP Bob, why do you think this man chose beheading as the method of the murder?
QUOTE (Nimue1995 @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 9:33 AM)
Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.
its really funny that you posted this as a reply to one of lois' posts.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Tuesday, February 17th, 2009, 9:49 PM)
Avaron, or FCP Bob, why do you think this man chose beheading as the method of the murder?
does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?
From dictionary.com...
Religion:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice
Culture:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
Religion influences culture but the 2 are not the same. One is faith based the other is based on what the society holds as a reflection of their quality of life.
That being said, many religious interpretations has viewed women as subservient to men and some to the degree that women are the actual property of men. And yes, this goes on in the US as well. Do some reading on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and you will see how religious interpretation created a cult leader that dictated a culture of suppressing the rights of women.
I know many men joke on this forum from everything about women poker players to prostitutes but keep in mind that you are perpetuating a culture that devalues women when you do this. Don't get me wrong, I can take what most posters say as tongue and cheek, especially the ones that riddle their responses with sarcasm and wit. However, there is a young group reading it taking comments seriously and you can tell by their lack of intellect posts. So I just ask all of you when you make a joke or comment about women, think how it would affect your mom, your sister, your wife and your daughter. To change world view we need to change the view of our own domains.
Anyway... what a somber thread. I hope something positive can come out of these shared views and stories.
Religion:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice
Culture:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
Religion influences culture but the 2 are not the same. One is faith based the other is based on what the society holds as a reflection of their quality of life.
That being said, many religious interpretations has viewed women as subservient to men and some to the degree that women are the actual property of men. And yes, this goes on in the US as well. Do some reading on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and you will see how religious interpretation created a cult leader that dictated a culture of suppressing the rights of women.
I know many men joke on this forum from everything about women poker players to prostitutes but keep in mind that you are perpetuating a culture that devalues women when you do this. Don't get me wrong, I can take what most posters say as tongue and cheek, especially the ones that riddle their responses with sarcasm and wit. However, there is a young group reading it taking comments seriously and you can tell by their lack of intellect posts. So I just ask all of you when you make a joke or comment about women, think how it would affect your mom, your sister, your wife and your daughter. To change world view we need to change the view of our own domains.
Anyway... what a somber thread. I hope something positive can come out of these shared views and stories.
QUOTE (Avaron @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 3:10 AM)
does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?
No, but it could give insight to who he was as a person, his wants, his desires, his goals, his belief system. To deny that is just being blind.
And, well said Theresa, although I think it's a little unwarranted. We love the wimmins here at FCP. Seriously, though, a dictionary doesn't define an area of the world where Religion is culture, the area defines itself.
Actually, to be honest, I am a little surprised by your post- on the surface it seems very pro women but it actually isn't. You bring up the issue of prostitutes and I can't help thinking that you should be all for prostitution, a womans or a mans right to do with her body as she sees fit, by choice. I am thinking taking a stance against prostitution based on the fact that women are involved would be a dangerous position to take whilst being pro womens rights. Furthermore I wonder if the supporting of such a career choice from the various men on this site actually makes them pro womens rights in ways many would never dare to be. These guys are cutting edge in my mind.
I wrestle with this in that I am against Prostitution from a biblical standpoint but from a real world standpoint it always seemed to me that sin is sin, and you might as well get paid if you so desire. I also don't buy into the hype from some of the Hookers on the point type shows, there is a whole slew of of these women that aren't covered because they make to much money and are perfectly fine with who they are. Think Bunny Ranch, which takes a more tongue in cheek look at it, but those women are into the craft if you will.
It just seems like you would support that in my mind.
Let's do this picture style:
Religious Observation
Culture
Does spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc.
Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.
Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.
Religious Observation
Culture
Does spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc.
Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.
Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.
QUOTE (theresa113 @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 6:41 AM)
Let's do this picture style:
Religious Observation
Culture
Does spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc.
Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.
Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.
Religious Observation
Culture
Does spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc.
Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.
Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.
Well, now I am just hungry.
Lois...
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
QUOTE (Avaron @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 5:10 AM)
does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?
Yes it does, in terms of this discussion, and get off your relativist high-horse. Fundamentalist islamic influence is a dangerous force against life and human rights in this world, and while you can pick and choose examples from other religions and cultures, nothing changes that fact...if Islam was the only religion on earth OR if every other religion inspired even more violence, it doesn't change the fact that this was most likely an honor killing inspired by a cultural fundamentalism deeply intertwined with Islam. Period.
Unbelievable that you even took the time to post this intellectually-absurd question set. If the husband just wanted to kill the wife, there are cleaner, more efficient, and less evidence-leaving ways of doing it. Morever, it was done in a method that is represented in the historical record by muslim men committing honor killings (btw, this guy is a pakistani, not an arab).
QUOTE (theresa113 @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 8:55 AM)
Lois...
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
Is it appropriate to sum up your collective posts as "the pervailing issue here is lack of respect for women and women's rights, so much so that it's inconsequential whether islam-influenced culture inspired this woman to be beheaded?"
QUOTE (theresa113 @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 6:55 AM)
Lois...
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously.
My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.
Fair enough, but prostitution is legal in all states, it's just sold under the guise of pornography, and if I remember correctly you like the porn, whihc can be just as destructive to a woman. That being said, so can working at Jack in the Box.
My daughter was just chortling to herself in her sleep, that was funny to see.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 9:02 AM)
Is it appropriate to sum up your collective posts as "the pervailing issue here is lack of respect for women and women's rights, so much so that it's inconsequential whether islam-influenced culture inspired this woman to be beheaded?"
Yes, because I do feel any culture or society can take any religious written word and twist it to repress a group within their own group. I think we should be aware that injustices against people happen everywhere including our own backyard. A beheading is dramatic and the Islam culture is so different than ours that it is easy to focus on the injustices that happen there. It would be tough to find many people in our culture who would support such an act. However, we as a society can easily turn our heads and ignore certain injustices that happen in our own territory. I think Bob's post was spot on.
Lois... I am anything but a black and white kind of gal. Even when it comes to porn I have inner debates.I think sex is the best gift we have to express ourselves to another person. I think an orgasm is a gift from God or what ever higher power or design there is. And I think there is some porn out there that is well made and can show people how to express themselves better to their sexual partners. However, unfortunately pornography has also been used to harm innocent people. I am totally against any kind of pornography that has people in it against their will or people who were not aware that they were being filmed. I am against pornography that has anyone in it who is not a legal adult.
QUOTE (theresa113 @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 7:20 AM)
Yes, because I do feel any culture or society can take any religious written word and twist it to repress a group within their own group. I think we should be aware that injustices against people happen everywhere including our own backyard. A beheading is dramatic and the Islam culture is so different than ours that it is easy to focus on the injustices that happen there. It would be tough to find many people in our culture who would support such an act. However, we as a society can easily turn our heads and ignore certain injustices that happen in our own territory. I think Bob's post was spot on.
Lois... I am anything but a black and white kind of gal. Even when it comes to porn I have inner debates.I think sex is the best gift we have to express ourselves to another person. I think an orgasm is a gift from God or what ever higher power or design there is. And I think there is some porn out there that is well made and can show people how to express themselves better to their sexual partners. However, unfortunately pornography has also been used to harm innocent people. I am totally against any kind of pornography that has people in it against their will or people who were not aware that they were being filmed. I am against pornography that has anyone in it who is not a legal adult.
Lois... I am anything but a black and white kind of gal. Even when it comes to porn I have inner debates.I think sex is the best gift we have to express ourselves to another person. I think an orgasm is a gift from God or what ever higher power or design there is. And I think there is some porn out there that is well made and can show people how to express themselves better to their sexual partners. However, unfortunately pornography has also been used to harm innocent people. I am totally against any kind of pornography that has people in it against their will or people who were not aware that they were being filmed. I am against pornography that has anyone in it who is not a legal adult.
I'm a hot mess, too. No shame in it.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 5:59 AM)
Yes it does, in terms of this discussion, and get off your relativist high-horse. Fundamentalist islamic influence is a dangerous force against life and human rights in this world, and while you can pick and choose examples from other religions and cultures, nothing changes that fact...if Islam was the only religion on earth OR if every other religion inspired even more violence, it doesn't change the fact that this was most likely an honor killing inspired by a cultural fundamentalism deeply intertwined with Islam. Period.
i don't speculate on what it was, to find that out is the job of the local law enforcement agency. and as long as nothing else is proven, i view this as a murder as they happen all over the world all the time. there had been murders with beheading before, and sure, it shows that the murderer is in some way mad. but it does not always have to do something with his religion, just because it's the most obvious possibility.
QUOTE
Unbelievable that you even took the time to post this intellectually-absurd question set. If the husband just wanted to kill the wife, there are cleaner, more efficient, and less evidence-leaving ways of doing it. Morever, it was done in a method that is represented in the historical record by muslim men committing honor killings (btw, this guy is a pakistani, not an arab).
what do we know about the background story and his mindset when he was doing it? maybe he was out of control, mad and in some kind of murderous frenzy and in that state of mind, people tend not to think very logically. what do we know?
just to make it clear: i don't think that it is impossible that his muslim background could play a role. but i don't want to prejudge, but wait for evidence.
Theresa,
I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture.
No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight.
Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.
I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture.
No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight.
Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.
Can't we all just agree that as long as the dishes are done and sex is not withheld for more then a week killing you wife is bad.
Donkslayer, you've been hearing the same state news I have about the Virginia Tech Chinese engineering student who beheaded another Chinese grad student. Is that beheading indicative that Asian culture, or Asian engineers, are driven by their culture to behead women regularly?
Salon called this a case of "murder while Muslim" -- because the perp is Muslim, we assume Muslim-ness had something to do with it, just like "driving while black" must mean on the way to a drug deal. Just because it may be true once in a while is no reason to assume it's always true.
Salon called this a case of "murder while Muslim" -- because the perp is Muslim, we assume Muslim-ness had something to do with it, just like "driving while black" must mean on the way to a drug deal. Just because it may be true once in a while is no reason to assume it's always true.
QUOTE (vbnautilus @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 9:20 AM)
Theresa,
I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture.
No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight.
Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.
I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture.
No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight.
Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Christianity elevated woman higher than any other religion, and it did it 2000 years ago.
But I do agree with your position that religion is the single greatest influence on culture, that's why America is so great.
QUOTE (Balloon guy @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 2:20 PM)
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Christianity elevated woman higher than any other religion, and it did it 2000 years ago.
But I do agree with your position that religion is the single greatest influence on culture, that's why America is so great.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Christianity elevated woman higher than any other religion, and it did it 2000 years ago.
But I do agree with your position that religion is the single greatest influence on culture, that's why America is so great.
No the BIBLE elevated women higher. Christianity has an extremely checkered past on women's rights (the puritans and their witch hunts being a colorful example). The two are really not the same thing. America is great because we (allegedly) welcome all religions and try to incorporate numerous cultures.....
in fact, some of America's greatest moves consisted of ignoring or eventually abandoning Christianity's position on an issue. (Overcoming the temperance movement...ironically something driven by Christian women.....and repealing Prohibition was one of our greatest moments. We did something foolish/did not consider the consequences because of religious driven hysteria about the evils of booze but we realized our error and instead of sticking with it we made the change.)
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Wednesday, February 18th, 2009, 2:37 PM)
No the BIBLE elevated women higher. Christianity has an extremely checkered past on women's rights (the puritans and their witch hunts being a colorful example). The two are really not the same thing. America is great because we (allegedly) welcome all religions and try to incorporate numerous cultures.....
in fact, some of America's greatest moves consisted of ignoring or eventually abandoning Christianity's position on an issue. (Overcoming the temperance movement...ironically something driven by Christian women.....and repealing Prohibition was one of our greatest moments. We did something foolish/did not consider the consequences because of religious driven hysteria about the evils of booze but we realized our error and instead of sticking with it we made the change.)
in fact, some of America's greatest moves consisted of ignoring or eventually abandoning Christianity's position on an issue. (Overcoming the temperance movement...ironically something driven by Christian women.....and repealing Prohibition was one of our greatest moments. We did something foolish/did not consider the consequences because of religious driven hysteria about the evils of booze but we realized our error and instead of sticking with it we made the change.)
I might have picked ending slavery, maybe freeing Europe, even inventing Tang, but ending prohibition as one of our 'greatest moments'?
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