no. they were part of its evolution.

But the main flaw with the whole 'he only bet on his team to win' argument is what that means about the games he didn't bet on the Reds to win. Did he use his bullpen as aggressively as he would a game he bet on? Did he rest starters in games he bet on? One would have to think the answer is no to both. I'd be more inclined to say it was 'ok' if he bet on the Reds every single game he managed.

just saying what they could prove against him.

I dont condone betting on your own team in any capacity.....I am just not sure that is any worse than throwing spitters your whole career. Or being the guy Ty Cobb was. Where and how do you draw that line? I say put em all in the Hall (if the #s and performance warrant it of course) and just put a line on their plaque about steroid use or gambling issues.

That sounds about right.

When Rick Barry had a sports talk show in the Bay Area, his idea to 'fix' professional sports was make everyone risk their own money on each game, so betting in a fashion. I can't recall the details of his scheme, but it was interesting to think about how the games might change.

well i don't necessarily believe pete rose only bet on his team to win. like i said, what exactly do you believe when it comes to what he says? he said for years and years that he never bet on baseball. then one day he says he did but only on his own team to win. at this point it's probably safe to assume that even he doesn't know what's true and what isn't anymore. like george costanza said "it's not a lie if you believe it".

whether or not he bet on them to win every game he managed is an excellent point, i never really thought about that aspect before. you're totally right he could have managed a game on tuesday differently than he normally would to set up his bullpen for a thursday game that he bet the farm on. that's a good enough reason(for me anyway) to uphold the ban against him and keep him out of the hall forever.

Well, the thing about sign-stealing, ball-scuffing, bat-corking, etc etc of course is that people see it (not really bat-corking, but the others) as quaint. But the thing is, it's kind of true.

Spitballs were legal until 1920, and even then it had a grandfather clause, so certain pitchers were actually allowed that advantage, while the rest of the league was not.

Personally I'm almost okay with anybody who has the gall to cork their bat - I mean that is really gambling. The embarrassment of shattering it and having cork/rubber fly out is basically a fitting punishment for the crime. A week's suspension is fine too.

And many forms of "sign-stealing" are totally legal, which is why the signs are so convoluted. And even the '51 Giants - they certainly were breaking the rules, but having a guy out in the bleachers with binoculars (and a mirror?? how did he signal to the batter?) frankly is a bit quaint.

A spitball pitcher can be caught and reprimanded right then and there. Same with a corked bat or a sign stealer (you ever see a batter sneak a look down at the catcher's fingers? probably not because he'd be on his ass the next pitch...). But steroid users have all cheated for an unknown amount of time, and in a much less specific, much less baseball-related way. Cheating with the ball itself, with the bat, or with the signals are all very specific and help you accomplish specific things (albeit illegally) - steroids help you cheat at everything, all the time.


I suppose I'm lucky that my favorite player over the last couple decades is certainly not in any danger of being outted as a roider - skinny-ass Pedro Martinez. Wake's probably clean too .

lkfd;sajf;ldsjf;lkdsajflk;dsf f'n cheating Giants and their 'shot heard round the world' tilts me. It wasn't only that game obviously, it was over the last few months of the season as the Giants made up a 13.5 game defecit. IIRC, the spy would signal the dugout, and they would relay to the hitter.

I highly doubt that. If you look back, over the past 5 season his average MPH per pitch has risen from 27.2 to 34.8. That just doesn't happen overnight without some help.

Damn, thought I'd read that they were both in the Rangers system, guess I stand corrected, my bad on that one.

As the other point, I grew up a Dodgers fan (born in LA), but my Dad is from SF and he's a Giants fan, so I have unique perspective whereby I don't hate all Giants. For some reason, I really liked the way Will Clark played the game and he was one of my favorite player's as a kid. Can't speak to the racist thing, but I always thought it was a shame that a guy like him who played the game right, didn't have the same kind of stats as a cheater like Palmeiro.

I think you're right, but I am more impressed by it than anything! I mean, it's a pretty incredible thing to do if they could get that to work.





That's cuz he went from pitching underhand to overhand.

Ya if he wasn't a Giant I might feel the same way, but as a Dodgers fan in the Bay Area it's hard for me to like any star player for them that all their fans love. Beautiful swing though.

Anyone remember Will Clark + RObbie Thompson vs Ozzie Smith and Jose Oquendo in that brawl after a play at second? Had to be '89 I think.

Ya, especially back then.

Will Clark was my favorite player for years even though I was a cubs fan. My dad grew up in the Bay Area, played college ball their and Single A ball. His crowning achievement was getting a hit off Juan Marichal in a rookie league game when they scrimmaged the giants. I remember sitting on the couch with my dad watching Will Clarks first at bat vs. Nolan Ryan, and he took him Yard.

It was 1988 and you forgot Candy Maldonado.

Last night on XM they were comparing the steroid era with the 1919 Black Sox scandal and trying to decide which was worse.

I always thought throwing the World Series is far worse than doping, but with each shred of evidence they presented I may actually start to change my tune. They brought up the list that implicated A-Rod, and said that if Bonds or Clemens' name is on that list then it's pretty much a slam dunk perjury conviction for those two. They also brought up that if the MLBPA lawyers advised players to cycle off because they knew who was next on the testing list then those lawyers could be disbarred over it. This has the potential to blow up larger than we could have ever imagined.

Oh please, throwing a game is worse than steriods. Corked bats are worse than steriods. Steriods do NOTHING to make you a better baseball player. Not in the sense than an average douche can no turn on a 90mph fastball while on juice. You still have to have pitch recognition and the skills to be a stud. Maybe, it can increase your power some, I agree, but you still have to possess the skills. Corked bats juice any batted ball. Spitballs make a normal curve drop an extra 6 inches and defy logic.

Pitchers don't throw appreciably harder on juice, they recover quicker. Besides, throwing 90 or throwing 100 doesn't matter, it's all about location. Case in point: Kyle Farnsworth vs Greg Maddux.

Now, I'm being a tad dramatic, but I think juice isn't a huge deal. It's primarily about recovery, not power. McGwire hit 49hrs his rookie year as a skinny kid. Juice? Maybe, maybe not. Go play one adult league baseball game and see how sore you are. These guys do it 6 days a week. It's too grueling not to take something, that's why old timers took uppers before a game and downers after, and today's players just went more high tech with HGH. Who cares? And if you don't think NBA and NHL players are taking this stuff, you're crazy. And the NFL, CMON.

Marvin Miller as usual rules

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3896888

i hate this argument. would you agree that steroids can make you faster? if you're faster you can turn singles into doubles, steal more bases, catch more fly balls etc, all things that can get you paid more, which is essentially anyone's motivation to take steroids: make more money

but it won't turn strikeouts into singles. It wont allow you to judge a flyball off the bat and it won't help you read the pitchers move to homeplate faster You have a tiny point, but the things you listed don't get people paid millions of dollars. Those things keep you as the 24th man on a roster.

another thing.. why are some steroid's okay ( cortizone) but others bad? Cortizone is absolutely terrible for you, it can **** up your body hard core long term. Why is that okay to use? it seems so arbitrary.

the difference between being the 24th man on the roster and a guy in triple A can certainly be worth millions over the course of a career

Gay-Roid is a ridiculous nickname. If you said it to me without me reading this thread, I wouldn't even know what you were talking about.

A-Roid is much more clever and much more fitting. That is all.

Without a doubt Barry Bonds showed that it can take the decline phase of a great players career where his stats begin tailing off and turn it into an ungodly peak period

In the history of baseball every baseball player had a statistic curve that looked sort of bell like until Bonds where when he was supposed to start to tail off he instead spiked

it definitely makes it impossible to compare stats among eras

Bonds was always a great player but on steroids he was the greatest hitter in the history off the game and at age 40!

you're right in some respects in that it won't help with hand-eye coordination and the like

however people with already impeccable hand-eye coordination, which most people in MLB already have or else they wouldn't be in MLB in the first place, will reap the benefits (see Bonds HR total skyrocket at an age when ballplayers start breaking down)

*it will turn warning track flyouts into home runs
*it will help people who can already read pitchers' moves to the plate get to second base faster
*it will help players who can read a defense get around the bases quicker
*it has turned mediocre players into superstars (Bret Boone from '01-'03 is a prime example)

Here is the dilemma though: 'Gay-Rod' is already a fantastic nickname, more aurally pleasing than 'A-Roid' if you ask me. But if you just go with Gay-Rod then you are missing the easy opportunity to slur a player named Rod who roided with a fitting pun.

'A-Roid' is certainly what will be heard in stadiums such as Fenway, but 'Gay-Rod' never had a chance in those venues because it's too rude. In the end I do agree with you that 'Gay-Roid' is a ridiculous name, even though I championed it before. I disagree however that 'A-Roid' is a clever name - to me it seems overwhelmingly obvious, while 'Gay-Rod' still has a certain charm to it.


[/sarcastic over-analysis]

Skinny Kid:





Not so much:

anyone using bonds as an example of what steroids do for a player needs to rethink it. he is an exception. of all the players who used steriods, no one hit like bonds. were his roids just that much better? i think not.

Conceded. Clever was the wrong word.

Gay-Roid is terrible though, and Gay-Rod just sort of fuels the ignorant, overly aggressive, asshole fan-bases that most teams already have. I hate sitting through a game listening to how much a player "likes it in the ass" or how much certain fans want a player to "break his fucking leg" (both direct quotes from the last baseball game I went to). Stuff like that just turns me away from going to see games live, which is something I would otherwise love to do.

no he was just better period

he was better clean and better juiced

but to say that juice didn't revitalize his career is obviously wrong - look at his stats the two years before he reacted to the sosa mcguire love fest and the gargantuan ones afterward

here's an anology

say mark mcguire can jump 3 feet and barry can jump 4

with roids mcguire can now jump 4.5 so barry juices too and then goes to 5

that's what happened

Yeah I almost put in a few sentences about homophobia, but then I was lazy. On the other hand (if homophobia is the first hand), 'gay' is often (at least on the internet) used ironically or sarcastically as a meaningless insult. And 'Gay-Rod' adds a visceral level. I can live with A-Roid though.


What I seriously want to know is where the full list is, and why was only one name released?

So, to test these theories, I just, in my own room, chanted A-Roid and Gay-rod in the traditional Daaaarrrryl Daaaaaaaaryl style at the top of my lungs, and I have to say, that although I intellectually like A-Roid better as a nick name, Gay-Rod makes a much better chant. That is all.

can't disagree with any of this, or the Bret Boone point.

Now that's what I'm talkin about!

chuck norris took steroids

Cortisone is used to treat allergies and other inflammatory ailments. I assume as its primarily used as a medicine and not a performance enhancer it's OK.

Oh, and I like Gay-Rod best too. A-Roid sounds exactly the same as A-Rod when chanting so he'll think you're on his side. He definately won't with Gay-Rod.

Also, was every guy who guest-starred on the Simpsons episode "Homer at the Bat" juiced?

Cortisone is terrible - it allows football players that are seriously hurt to not feel the pain and go out there and play and get hurt long term

but of course - no one cares about football players and steroids because we love death hits

who cares that football players die 20 years earlier than the average human - its baseball players hitting too many home runs that is the issue

So I only hear a snipet of his interview, but it sounds like he did not admit to using Steroids, but instead stimulants. Do we have any clarification for what he tested positive for? This is a huge huge difference IMO. If he tested positive for ephedra vs. anabolic steroids they are not even in the same category. Especially since ephedra until just a few years ago could be purchased at GNC and Safeway.

he tested positive for testosterone and primobolan which is an anabolic steroid. i always knew this guy was a douche. now its been confirmed.

And welcome to spring training.





When even the Asians are yelling at you, you know it's gonna be rough.

Obviously he didn't do enough steroids in 03' because our record was shit. Compare

3 years with AROID who cost 200+million
3 years with Royce Clayton who cost about 800,000

I believe our record was better all three years with clayton compared to three years with aroid

He's not a team player, he's a team killer and if he's going to do steroids then he should at least make it count for something.

I've never heard anyone use the term "our" referring to the Rangers before.

Royce Clayton will always be one of my favorite Giants. When we had season tickets in the 90s he was a good shortstop.

Anybody think that all this hip bs is just a cover for the inevitable drop in numbers this year due to lack of roids?

that douche needs to turn down some interview requests. Really? Details Magazine?

he is obv making money. you should know that Denny, or is the mad cow starting to make a turn for the worst?

check out those guns.

holy crap!

reminds you of me, doesnt it baby.

I hope not. ick.