Who are your Top Ten defensive players in the league currently? 2 for each position.

PG

1. Chris Paul
2. Chauncey Billups

SG

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwayne Wade

SF.

1. Tayshaun Prince
2. Shane Battier

PF.

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan

C

1. Marcus Camby
2. Dwight Howard

Too bad Tim Duncan is a center and not a power forward. I much prefer classifying players as bigs, wings and points but if you're going to use the traditional center - power forward classification Duncan is a center. (Not that big a deal really but his whining when it comes to All Star classification is really really annoying )

I think James Posey is somebody who should be considered on any best defensive players lists. He can guard 3 positions and I think is one of the most underrated players in the game today.

Duncan is usually listed as a PF/C.

I'd probably have Bowen on my list too but I think he has lost a step at this point and isn't quite the shutdown guy he used to be. Posey could be on here, so could a lot of other players but that's my top two at each position.

I can't really argue with any of the players on your list. If I were going to go with my classification I would list 4 bigs, 4 wings and 2 points and I think Posey would be one of my 4 wings ahead of Wade most likely.

The only reason that Tim Duncan has ever been considered a power forward was the fact that Robinson was on the team when he came into the league and they went with the Twin Towers and they had to call one a center and one a power forward. If he goes to any other team he's considered a center for his entire career. At this point his ego wants him to be considered a power forward so that he can get selected to All Star games since Yao will win the vote every time and also so that people can call him maybe the best power forward ever where if he is considered a center nobody thinks he is the best ever.

All that being said Duncan is a great great player but I've always been annoyed by him and his whining when he is one of the most cheated for players in the NBA by the refs.

Question...is this purely defensive players without any regard to offensive talent? Quinton Ross is one of the best defenders I've seen in the last 10 years, for example. Same goes for Linsdsey Hunter. Hunter is old now, and Ross never plays now because he brings so little offensively. There's probably a few players like this scattered across the league...do they count?

And define defense. Great positional defender? Turnover producer (steals)? Weak side help shot blocker? The whole package?

I looked at it as playtime, if your in the top 7 of a teams rotation you would get enough play time to warrant consideration.

It's definitely not Amare Stoudamire.

Steve Nash

Tervor Ariza.

Unless your name was Greg "2 fouls guaranteed between opening tip and the first Tv timeout" Oden.

He wasn't really in the discussion anyway

Cue the Jadaki whining but Lebron is going to make all NBA defensive team this year - he held rudy gay to ten points on like 5-18 and had a triple double himself

if he stays healthy he will be soon.

The LJ hype train never stops. I have no doubt he will make that team well before he ever deserves it, just like a certain all star mvp award and about everything else that's gets handed to him on a platter thanks to marketing before he actually earns it. Gay isn't Kobe, Wade, hell is isn't even Carmelo. He is a slightly above average player at his position. Also what you do on offense doesn't really factor into the discussion about how good of a defensive player anyone is, but like I said, the hype train never stops or sticks to the basics of the conversation if it can somehow help out it's case.

I'm sure glad you are here to help "bare witness", because without the marketing team how could we ever judge him objectively... oh wait, most people (especially ones who live in Cleveland) don't. I have a theory on why that is, but it's a bit to lenghty to post here and I'd rather go watch porn that get to into the psychological aspects of fandom.

Just to be clear, I think LJ will at some point in his career make an all defensive team. I just think he gets there before he actually deserves it (probably by 1 season or 2) because ESPN never misses a chance at showing him block a point guards shot coming from behind and knocking the ball out of play. Great for highlights, but not much for effectiveness. Not to mention horrible broadcasters like Jeff Van Gundy treat him like he is Bill Russel which is flat out ridiculous, of course he has also picked the Rockets to come out of the western conference like 2 of the last 3 seasons. I trust that guy.

He held paul pierce 2-12 the other night and has been doing it all year

Explain to me now how blocking a sure layup from behind is a complete waste of time even if the other team does retain posssession

layups are an automatic two points and blocking them adds value and he's been blocking 1-2 a night

Just because he does 5 amazing highlight reel things a game doesn't mean the rest of his night wasn't productive

or maybe they are 30-6 because of Anderson Varajao

Jadaki would have been one of the guys who went along with Isaiah Thomas and froze Michael Jordan out of the All Star Game that one year because of jealousy.

It was the dang nut-huggers they used to wear.. Would make them do crazy things.

Cleveland finally ventures out West for multiple games in the next two weeks, let's see how LBJ does against the actual NBA. I'm sure he'll pass with flying colors (*spoiler* : he's good), but Cleveland as a team hasn't had serious pressure put on them over the course of a full West-Coast Roadie:

Hornets at home, then:
At Lakers, At Blazers, At Warriors, At Jazz.

They follow that mess up against Orlando, in Orlando on TNT. There will be plenty of LBJ to watch in the coming weeks. Better to sit and wait for it than to mindlessly argue about it in the meantime. Cleveland has only had *5* games this season against teams that could even potentially represent the West in the Finals. That number is going to rise to *9* within the next two weeks.

This is my favorite time of year: when the conferences finally get out of their comfort zone and start to actually collide. I know it's more fun for me as a Portland guy to finally get to watch the Blazers clash with the Cetics and Pistons and Cavs, et al, than facing the Clippers or Warriors for the umpteenth time.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You’re telling me that fans don’t judge their favorite teams and players objectively? That they have a bias? You just blew my mind. Next you’ll probably tell me that parents think their kids are the smartest and cutest.

I can’t wait to hear this theory. Are you going to try to get it published? Could change the sports world as we know it.

Way to think on the most simplest level. It has nothing to do with home teams.

Incorrect.

Jadaki, I'm seriously curious to hear your thoughts, if you want to post them here or whatever. I always try to make my views as unbiased as possible...do your thoughts mostly have to do with media bias?

Not actually, though it plays a part. It has much more to do with the thought process of casual fans. Lets assume there are generally two types of fans in the sporting world. There are people who follow every detail of a team/program/player and then there are much more casual fans who like to sort of be in the know because they don't want to be left out of conversations around the water cooler, but they aren't exactly checking their blackberry every 15 minutes for news updates either.

I'm the first type, as are a lot of other people here are. We get emotionally invested in our teams or players. We stick out horrible seasons in hopes that next year will be better (I'm talking about you Michigan football) or that we are one player away from a championship or doing something memorable. We gloat while our teams our winning, or our favorite player is having a great game against a hated rival, and enjoy talking smack with opposing fans either in person or over forums on the internet.

For the more casual fan the motivation is different. Lets use Michael Jordan as an example here. How many people do you remember talking about Jordan with that now don't even watch the NBA, or that would tune into Bulls playoff games during the championship years but never watched a regular season game? I can think of quite a few, pretty much the ultimate fairweather fans. Why do those people pay attention at that point, or to that player? Generally when some team or someone is generating as much attention as Jordan did, the media attention transcends the sport. It becomes something a little bigger, injects itself into pop culture in a way that few things do. People in general have a need to belong to something, it's pretty much the reason religion exists... so when that once a generation player comes along like MJ, people who normally don't give a shit about the Bulls, the NBA or basketball in general get caught up in wanting to be a part of something because other people think it's special.

The athlete I can think of who best demonstrates this today is Tiger Woods, the numbers of people who watch golf tournaments where Tiger is playing or in the hunt for a win on Sunday is dramatically higher than if he isn't playing. People who don't even like golf will watch the end of the Masters because they want to be a part of something, it becomes a story to tell, or a way to identify with other people through sports. Obviously the media plays a big part in this.

What's this have to do with Lebron? Well before he ever stepped foot in the NBA he was already being labeled the this generations greatest player thanks to the supersaturated sports media market. He comes into the league and doesn't do anything particular to discourage the hype, he plays pretty well, makes a ton of highlight real type plays, is on during every commercial break, and eventually even people who haven't hardly watched him play want to be involved. The normally less fanatical fans are buying his shoes and jerseys because it's important to have lose LJ 1's, and they begin spreading the gospel of LJ like they have been following him as a religious disciple since middle school. A lot of people are to young now to have latched onto Jordan when he came into the league, and they caught onto him late in his career, but to these people it was important to be a fan from day one because on the chance that LJ lives up to his tremendous potential, they want to say they were there, that they were a fan before everyone else, they want some superficial bragging rights and stories to tell. This is of course not really LJ's fault, it's the way the media and the casual fan react to rare athletes, and because of this he will often receive accolades that he hasn't necessarily earned yet because the perception of LJ is more important to the masses than the substance. People who have criticized various parts of LJ's game often pointed out his lack of effort on the defensive end the first 2 seasons he was in the league. Now does a Cav's highlight real go by without them attempting to show LJ making some kind of play on defense? This is why I'm completely confident that LJ will make an all defensive team probably a year or two before he actually deserves too. Because for the casual fan, the legend needs to keep growing, the myth needs to be a little bigger than the reality, and the ultimate hero of the NBA can't have flaws because it hurts the casual fans who want to be a part of it, or in this case him.

How the casual fans affect the perception of certain athletes and how they are covered by the sporting media is very interesting. This probably isn't coming across as clearly as I'd like it too, I'm not a writer by nature so it's easier to explain my view over a different medium.

I'll digest that post and respond to it later, I'm going to nap now and then go and I want to give it its proper attention

That would only make sense if LeBron was all hype. But that motherfucker is the real deal. Even us Kobe lovers are having to give him his due as the best in the league. I'll still take Kobe for the final shot in game 7, but LeBron is on another level right now. In my opinion.

It's not about him being all hype, it's about the casual fans need to be a part of something. Everyone has a MJ story, now everyone wants a LJ story. They want him to be the next best thing since sliced bread because being a part of it matters to them on a subconscious level.

Let me summarize. The casual fans only pay attention “where amazing happens.” The die-hard fans pay attention no matter what happens. TV needs the casual fan for ratings/money. Therefore, TV needs to make the ordinary extraordinary. Yes?

But that’s standard operating procedure. Everything these days has to be “the best ever” and it’s not limited to the sports world. However, just because someone or something receives a ton of hype does not automatically mean the hype is not warranted. Lebron surely gets a ton of coverage, but at the same time there’s been a ton of in-depth analysis by “die-hards” that show he is the best player in the game. You can’t dismiss someone simply because they are the beneficiary of more media coverage than anyone else. You mentioned Tiger as a good example. Is Tiger not clearly the best in the world?

Yes, it does have to do with everyone thinking the latest is the best, but thats not always true.

And Tiger is so far more dominate in his sport than Lebron is it's not even close. For Lebron to dominate like Tiger he would have had to have been MVP every season he has been in the league, been all NBA defensive first team every year, defensive player of the year every year, All star MVP every year, and won at least 3 NBA titles.

Lebron wishes he was on Tiger's level, so does pretty much every other athlete in the world. The NBA doesn't lose over 60% of it's viewership when Lebron isn't on.

it's a team sport that's impossible - even Chamberlain didn't do it when he aveaged 50 -25

It's proving a point about how far Tiger is ahead of his competition, team sport or not.

Tiger beats his competition playing with injuries that most people wouldn't get out of bed with. He dominates pretty much at will.

Nice that LJ almost had a triple double last night, if you count turnovers. Oh and that mid range game I keep saying Lebron doesn't have... I appreciate him proving me right last night when he tried to win the game repeatedly by bricking up mid-long range jumpers. I wonder why everyone on sports talk today is asking why he didn't drive the rim. If I was his coach I'd be asking the same thing, that's not his game.

Lebron isn't ahead of everyone in the NBA, he is one of the frontrunners in a pack of very good players. Tiger is so far ahead of his competition you can become a hero just by playing close to his level when he is hurt.

Here's the truth about last night

Lebron was sick as a dog, couldn't breath or get any elevation, which is why he was missing layups and committing turnovers - probably the same cold that has left Ben Wallace on the bench the last two nights

"This was my worst game of the season," said James, who finished with 28 points while playing with a cold. "I was sick, and when I get sick I miss layups and put-backs.

"It's tough out there when you can't breathe. But they did a good job defensively on me."


Losing Delonte West didn't help

The team was stuck at the airport in Chicago all last night and didn't get into town until like 5 AM

Lebron showed up 2 hours earlier than usual for tonight's game to shoot jumpers because he was upset about his bad game last night (Despite this update from the Plain Dealer - LeBron is still not feeling well, maybe worse than last night)

How can you take such joy in criticizing a guy like that? He never gets into trouble. He never says anything obnoxious. He always talks about team and winnning

I know I know - MJ always had moster nights when he was sick - whatever - Lebron despite the amount of hype he has gotten is one of the good guys in sports.

6 years of constant media surveillance and the worst thing he's ever done is wear a Yankees hat to an Indians game

He could wear a Celtics jersey during a game against the Celtics - I'm honored that I get to watch him play night after night

it's pretty sad that no one has mentioned Ron Artest. he is #1 in my book.

Even more amazing when you consider Wilt was 6 inches taller than anyone else in league.

Yea, that Hummer that just showed up at his house when he was in high school proves he always takes the high moral road. Stop selling me that he is some sort of super good guy who wouldn't step on an ant. He has PR people telling him what to do and say all the time, for all you know he could be thinking about bricking in some chauffeurs mouth and video taping it... oh wait that's Eddie Curry.

Either way, you don't know him, stop trying to vouch for his character like you have been around him since he was potty trained.



Yea, he could be in the top ten for sure. I'd probably take him over Shane Battier now that I think about it.

So guilty until proven innocent?

Nice

Fess up did Lebron bang your woman or what?

You really think he never took anything he wasn't supposed to? Never got paid before he was a professional... you really think he is just the absolute perfect person don't you?

He never banged my woman, because he would have trouble using his dick the way your mouth is attached to it. I'm sure this love fest you have with him will go out the door the minute he signs with the Knicks or whatever team in a real media center he goes with. After all it's going to be a lot easier to reach that goal of being the first billionaire athlete somewhere besides Cleveland. I can't wait to see you bad mouth him after that, though I'm sure you will say something dumb for a while like "I just don't want to see his talent wasted" or something along those lines until the realization that he isn't the perfect role model/person/athlete/whatever you imagine he is hits home.

Then you can be jaded about him and latch on to whoever the new "next greatest thing" is.

My favorite baseball player is Manny Ramirez - whatever he does he does

The hate you have for him though is amazing - what did he ever do to you besides get hyped and be the best basketball player at 18 19 20 21 22 23 and 24 of all time?

I don't care what you think Manny has to do with this, when you start posts like you do about Lebron in the baseball forum I'll come make fun of you for that too.

It's hilarious if you think he was ever the best basketball player at any age. Like you witnessed the greatest players ever at every age and hung on their jocks like you do James. Learn to understand the difference in between various periods of history in the sport and rules that were in place during them, or keep believing the retardedness that you think he is the greatest whatever aged basketball player ever. I can name so many players that were better at any given age it's silly.

He is just what is hot now and because he plays for your "current" home team you feel the need to champion some bullshit cause for him trying to make people believe things that are not true. Your irrational love of a guy you don't know and the way you defend him like he is your personal lord and savior is pretty close to SS24 and Josh Cribbs levels. Watching him bail on your team and seeing you descend into into a fit of uncontrollable hatred when he isn't a Cav anymore will be better than listening to Koop come up with premade excuses for Alabama choking in their first BCS game. I'm a patient guy, he is a free agent in what... 18 months or so?

my irrational love of him is nowhere near your irrational hate

I don't hate him. I just don't hold an irrational man crush on him.

I do however hate the people like you who make stupid and false claims to how good he is.

Lebron DID take the Vienna Boys Choir to the NBA finals one year. And that's something even the Legend Himself Michael Jordan ™ never accomplished. I mean.. that Cavs team was *baaaaaad*. That was miles beyond Iverson taking the Sixers to that Finals against the Lakers. Lebron had *nobody* to help him out on that team. He had Daniel Gibson and.. ummm.. Big Z? Larry flippin Hughes?

I think the majority (myself included) are just bitter cuz we get stuck with so many LBJ games on TNT/ESPN/NBC that are painful to watch. No offense, but the Cavs aren't exactly excitement, incorporated. They are in that SA Spurs/Pittsburgh Steelers vein of "grind it out, finished prodcut be damned" sports entertainment. Doesn't mean that they aren't dang good, just as thrilling as watching paint dry.

I agree with that and I've always wished that he could run free - i actually have said many times I wish that he was with a team that showed off his talents

with that said - at full strength they are entertaining this year - Delonte West was playing great as is Mo Williams - and the rest who used to be front line weaknesses are now bench strength

Be more impressive if the Eastern Conference that year wasn't the absolute worst version of a conference maybe in the history of the league. That was the year people were claiming only 4 teams from the East even deserved to make the playoffs and wanted the whole system changed.

I don't agree with Cappy that they were quite that boring, it's a matter of style and they played defense first. Some people enjoy that, but most people would rather see an uptempo style offensive game.

I agree with Cappy. The Spurs are 'boring' but I can watch them, however, unless you're a Cavs fan I don't know how people watch them, even Lebron isn't aesthetically pleasing to watch. I would bet that there's atleast 100 players I would rather watch on a nightly basis than Lebron in fact. And no, it has nothing to do with Kobe and/or the Lakers, it's that his J is ugly, and I don't like the way he drives to the basket, even most of his dunks are ugly.

Well when you're copying Karl Malone dunks it's hard to be eye pleasing.

Are we seeing the return of the old Samuel Dalembert?

It's almost like Elton's injury has motivated the guy...or I'm hoping anyways in my fantasy league.