Consider HORSE. You can do your thing (nit up in LHE and Stud hi) and you'll be able to do *exactly* what you are looking for: Play Stud8 and O8b against people who are (on average) not very good at it. And do *not* be scared of razz, it's really easy to push people around based on boards, or even just nit up and still show great profits as well. Razz sections of Horse tables are notoriously soft, and you'll often win a nice 3-5 BB pot on the first hand of stud when someone doesn't realize the game swapped. Ditto for the first hand of Stud8.

Seriously give it a thought. I'll be more than willing to trade PMs back and forth if you wanna shove me a bunch of hands in stud hi and razz while you get accustomed to becoming a jack-of-all-trades.

On a normal day for me, I'll open 2 horse tables and up to 2 Lo8 tables. L08 is so valuable for multitabling since it's a flop game. If I cant find 2 horse tables to open, I'll troll stud8 or razz or l08. Generally the rule of thumb is: no more than 2 up-card info retention games. Don't be an idiot like me back in the day, trying to run Stud8, Razz, LO8, and Horse tourneys all at the same time. lol.

Just a thought.

Also, make sure you play some low limit tourneys for lo8/horse/stud8 etc.. There is *no* cheaper practicing for a poker player than those micro tourneys to just get in a *ton* of hands for a simple $1/$2 total wager. I wouldn't be half the player I was today if it wasn't for all those micro-tourneys. You've seen me post, imagine what I was like BEFORE I learned how to be "patient". rofl.

I don't mind it you took a shot didn't work....shrug. Once you do something like this you don't look so nitty and can play verry nitty for awhile and get paid off. If villain checks river what do you do?

Interesting suggestion, but is this consistent with my goal of low-risk bonus-clearing? I suck at LHE and Stud hi, and Razz is pretty high variance, isn't it? I want to be able to get credit for high raked pots without losing buyins in the process.



I'd love to but I'm a recreational player with little time to play (typically 1.5-2 hrs in the evening). No time for MTTs, and the STTs for the other games just don't fill on FT.

Since the pot is relatively small I'd probably try to take it down figuring the 3 probably just ruined his hand.

I don't know what I'd do in that spot. I don't know what he could call that turn with other than the nutz. such a weird spot for him to lead out on the river the more I look at it.

As I've said before, it is extremely difficult to analyze play at this level because opponents play such a wide range of hands and play very unpredictably postflop.

I thought for sure that after minleading the flop and checking the turn he was done with the hand, which is why I thought I could take it down. I was quite surprised when he called. I think you're right though that he must be nutty after check-calling that turn and then leading into me on the river. Either A5xx or 35xx.

Before I try HORSE I'm going to take a shot at my LO8 nut-peddling strategy. Here's the strategy, which I'm going to post-it to my monitor:

Hand selection
Only play the following hand combinations:
1) A2 + a 3rd wheel card and/or high potential (high pairs, broadway combos) - e.g., A23x, A25T, A2KK

2) Suited Aces + a wheel card - e.g., A9s24, A5sxx, AQs37

3) 23 + a 3rd wheel card only if in late position

I'm guessing that should result in a VPIP of roughly 10% or so. If I'm playing higher than 15% I'm probably too loose.

Postflop
- Only bet nut hands, big combo draws, or good nut low draws with high potential (e.g., A23K on a K57 flop)
- Only draw to nut hands
- Only draw to the bare nut low if pot is very multi-way
- If none of the above conditions hold, check-fold

Thoughts?

Poker is variance. You will win more than your share in Razz just by turning up the aggression. You build big pots in essential coin flip situations a lot, but you pick up a ton of dead money through dragging pots/timely opponent folds. LHE isn't anything to be scared of. It's not NL, and I'm sure you are solid at people on ranges. Just like in all things limit, make some serious hero calls. Also, remember that Stud Hi and LHE are zero-sum games, so you are always getting full pot odds on your draws/bluff catchers.

If you are seriously *just* after bonus clearing, 4-table Lo8. If you can't break even 4 tabling LO8 with your playstyle after a couple weeks, I dunno what to tell ya



yup, sounds familiar. Which is a shame, cuz $1 LO8 and Horse MTTs are Stars are right up your alley.

On a side note, even without rakeback, it just seems most people I run into have good to great returns on Stars and struggle clearing bonus on FTP. For the life of me I can't figure out why that is.

4. ) High connecting cards for a single bet.

5. ) Try not to go broke flopping sets in 6-way pots.

I do like your first 3 rules.


Postflop

Bet any time you have decent equity in a pot and a bet can potentially narrow the field. Remember that a flop lead + a turn lead can completely win the hand for you.

Realize that my A23K hand has little to no long-term high potential on a K57 flop with many villains.

Pick your spots, change your gears. Each table plays different. One's always a limpfest, One caps 5 ways PF, and one you can absolutely run over all day long. I think it's always a good thing to preach and practice discipline, but realize that poker fortunes aren't made through flopping perfect with A2 or getting dealt AA23.. It's all the non-showdown pot drags, the draws with insane pot odds (+implied) that you make, building pots PF that you have great 2-way hands in, and attacking any flop with 1 or less low cards in it (and no aces) to push fields of 3 or fewer out.

The biggest key to LO8 is hand selection, and you already do that extremely well. Picking your hand is half the battle, it's the evolution in your game of "what you do with the hand you do pick" that's gonna make you filthy rich.

BTW- any type of ETA on how long you are stuck bonus clearing for? Sounds like it's making you miserable and hasn't been worth it.

Yes, at this point I am just clearing bonus. I moved a small amount over to FT ($200) so I'm not exactly rolled to be playing the kinds of tables I've been playing. That's why reducing variance during this period is so important.

That 4th one has gotten me into big trouble, perhaps because I've had trouble getting away from decent but not great flops. Playing high hands really requires the perfect flop to avoid problems.


This was actually an example from Hwang's book of a hand that you bet when checked to (but don't lead into a field).


Bonus period ends Feb. 22, so I have about 5 weeks left. So far it definitely hasn't been worth it but there's still time to turn things around.

Variance just shouldn't be a problem, especially if you are multi-tabling and getting a ton of hands in. I hate accusing anyone of this, but you may need to stop thinking so negatively: it might be turning you into scared money in situations where you should be blasting away and capping in positive equity situations.



High hands are the cheesiest way to *scoop* pots. Thats why you play them in good situations. Truthfully, I'll play 3-4 solid high cards suited in any position barring wild action in front of me. It could be a leak in my game, tho. I think I drag enough high-only scoop pots to compensate for the trouble I get myself into from time to time. It's a mental thing: When I'm having trouble winning my share with A2xx, I often look to turn the hurt to someone else who's playing A2xx when I got high cards. In fact, 4 raggedy high cards put me in a lot of situations where the low/straight/flush draw or whatever doesnt come in and I can pick off a river bluff for a massive pot in a marginal spot.

For bonus points, there is no greater feeling then an idiot leading out after missing on the river, and *raising* his a$$, forcing the 3rd person (who actually has you) to fold and then listening to him berate you in chat if you end up showing the hand down when idiot A actually calls you with his pair of twos-ace kicker. Fun Fact about poker: 99.9% of the time when some one berates you for your "poor" play, it's cuz you are stacking his chips and cackling gleefully.



Interesting how he doesn't want you to lead into a field with it. Not a lot of "monster" type hands that connect with K57, so might as well see how guys with 8894 want to pay to see the turn. In actuality, leading out is win-win, since if it's called in 5 places and raised in laaaate position there's plenty of money now to see to the river and collect your 1/4-3/4 of the pot.

If it's raised directly behind you, it may fold around and you get to play a pot heads up where you couldn't be in terrible shape against anything short of A2KK or some other goofy set. Even a straight draw plus A2 isn't a disaster in the least.

As for turning things around, do it tonight. Each session is brand new. If I was to suggest something different: try going crazy for a night. Try out some of our idiot tasmanian devil strats, play 4567 for 2 bets PF, bet nearly anytime it's checked to you. Follow with a bet on the turn. Make the guys at the table *hate* to get into a pot with you. Instead of being uncomfortable, make them uncomfortable. If you lose a buy in, who cares? At least you got to live a little. And if you win big, that's great. If you tread water like always, then at least you'll have some hilarious hands to post.

Best of luck, bro.

The tasmanian devil approach just isn't me. I'll stick with the nut-peddling experiment and see how it goes.

Had my first session tonight, 2-tabling and basically broke even (not having a losing session is almost a victory in itself lately). Had to sit down at a 6-max table, which isn't ideal for a nut-peddling approach, simply because there are never more than 2 tables of .25-.50 LO8 going on and I could only get a seat at one of them. FullTilt sux. In any case, I stuck pretty close to my strategy, only straying a few times. My estimate of a 10% VPIP was too low since I was in the 'hood of 18-20% on both tables. I gotta be honest, though, it actually felt good going into the session with a very concrete strategy that I'm confident will help stop the bleeding. The thing about nut-peddling in LO8 is that with solid hand selection your hands basically play themselves. You either miss the flop or don't hit enough and fold, or you hit big enough to take it to the river and most likely take at least 1/2 the pot. It's certainly not an exciting way to play, but excitement isn't a priority of mine at the tables these days.

Would the .10/.20 type tables still help you toward rakeback? If you could open a couple of those up, you'd offset the lower limit with increased profits. Might be worth a gander.

I like Cappy's suggestions added to this, but I think if you can strictly stick to these rules you have set for yourself you should be able to show some profit even if the rake is high. It also might help if you can find a table that has a high amount of people seeing the flop with a large pot size avg.

There are no .10-.20 tables on FT. LO8 starts at .25-.50. The only lower tables are for PLO8.

Yeah, the frustrating thing about FT is that there are rarely more than 2 tables going when I play, which doesn't allow for much selection.

Ugh... Yeah that makes it pretty durn difficult. If anything, goof off on Horse for a couple of days just to take a break from the LO8 grind.

Oh, one other big thing: Are you stuck playing the same hours every night? If not, you might want to change up the time of day you play.... I spend a lot of time breaking even before 9pm PST on stars (horse/o8b), and from like, 10pm on it's like printing money with a complimentary happy ending.

So yeah, experiment with the time of day you are playing if possible, it might be the easiest "fix" of all the things we've suggested.

Unfortunately not much flexibility there. I work full time and have young kids at home, so I'm pretty well restricted to the 8-10pm eastern timeslot. Once in a while I may get some time to play during the day, and sometimes if I'm not overly tired and don't have an early meeting I may play a bit more between 11pm and maybe 12:30 or 1am.

I have noticed more activity on FT during their extra FTP happy hours, when they offer 2x FTP's. During that time there are usually twice as many cash tables going, which means there are likely more players at the tables who don't normally play those games. Unfortunately FT varies their happy hours, and they aren't usually during prime time.

One thing I have concluded from this bonus-clearing exercise is that I really don't like FT. The variety for non-NLHE players just pales in comparison to Stars. The only thing it has over Stars is rakeback.

Trying out a HORSE table now. Only one table of .25-.50 LO8 going so I don't have much choice. Had to wait more than 10 minutes for a seat at one of the two .25-.50 HORSE tables.

Great. Just lost about $4 in a hand of Stud hi when my rolled up trip 10's lost to a Q-high straight. When he raised me on 6th I said to myself, "What are the odds he has the last remaining 10 when I'm holding the other 3?" Stupid me. I apparently suck at all forms of poker.

only $4? Jam harder before 6th. =P Make that pot massive holding 3 straight blockers.

P.S. - if it makes you feel any better, I sucked during my 1st session tonight. Lost every single monster razz pot I played. Was downright comical. I also was on a o8b table for an hour, hit only one flop, and managed to only lose half a buy in.

I did my job of betting/raising prior to that but they just called down. The 2nd villain eventually bailed and then I got hit with the raise on 6th. I called, he led 7th, I called. Stupid game.

I really don't like HORSE, though, and not just because of that hand (I made some of it back when I hit quads in LHE). I just don't like the mix of games. I hate LHE and Stud hi (find them both incredibly boring, and I suck at them), and Razz is just silly. So the only games I like in the mix are O8 and Stud-8. I much, much prefer 8-game because the games I don't like are balanced out by the inclusion of NLHE and TD.

The problem I'm having during this bonus-clearing journey is that I just can't find the right mix of games to play based on my interests and bankroll on FT. I'm stuck playing games at higher limits than I'd like and the options in general are limited. I also can't clear as much bonus as I'd like because there just aren't enough tables going at the games I do play. Ideally I'd like to 3-table or 4-table LO8 with my nut-peddling strategy, but I'm lucky if there are even two tables active. I'm actually seriously considering just giving up on the rest of the bonus and moving the money back to Stars. But it seems stupid to give up on free money. I don't know. Arggggggg!

Was able to sit at two LO8 tables tonight and finally had a winning session!

Keep on at it. I swear half of the secret to winning is just believing you are going to.

I value bet thin:

PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.20 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5, 4, 5, 2
Hero calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (5 SB) 6, 3, 10 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls

Turn: (4 BB) 8 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, 1 fold

River: (6 BB) A (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

Total pot: $1.60 (8 BB) | Rake: $0.07

Results:
Button had 2294 (Hi: one pair, twos, Lo: [ 6, 4, 3, 2, A ]).
Hero had 5452 (Hi: one pair, fives, Lo: [ 6, 4, 3, 2, A ]).
Outcome: Button won $0.38, Hero won $1.15

Unable to make it two in a row. Stuck to my nut-peddling strategy but bled chips calling raises with solid hands that whiffed on the flop. Couldn't hit anything to make up for it. On the bright side I'm a couple sessions away from clearing the next $20 of my bonus. That will make half my $200 deposit, with about 6 weeks left to earn as much of the remaining half as possible.

if you are playing that tight preflop then you should be raising, reraissing, and caping every hand. you need to have the initiative and steal a pot here and there on the flop to keep afloat until you hit the huge 30bb scooper (playing like this will also help you make the pot that big when you do finally hit). pay attention to how much this bloats the pot as you will need to chase some things you aren't used to chasing.

I need to get myself on an upswing before I try that approach. My poker confidence is in the crapper these days.

Despite the fact that I don't like HORSE cash, I tried a HORSE STT tonight and finished 2nd. The play was terrible, especially during Razz. I got to HU play during the LHE round and got eaten alive. It's a real shame SnGs are useless from a bonus-clearing perspective because I am so much more comfortable in tourney poker in general.

Took down my 2nd HORSE SnG last night, I'm starting to like these things...

I've had it with FullTilt. I log in tonight and go to my regular .25-.50 LO8 tables and there is only one running with 3 people already waiting. So I decide to check the .25-.50 limit HORSE tables, looking for something to help clear my bonus, and there aren't any full tables going. A couple of 6-max, but no full tables. It is way too difficult to clear bonus on that site for low stakes players like myself.

that sucks man! I haven't attempted to play there yet either and from what I hear from everyone not planning on doing so anytime soon

I'm so fed up with this bonus clearing that I've made a decision. I'm going to take a couple weeks off and just focus on playing my strengths (SnGs) and try to build my roll up that way. If things go well then maybe I'll try to clear a bit more bonus before my time runs out. A big part of my problem with this whole process has been that I'm not really properly rolled to be playing the games I've been playing because FT doesn't have enough options at the low stakes.

Signing off for now...

anyone know who vtguy2727 is on starz?