is it possible that "evolution" and "god" are just two different names for the same thing?

please show work.

whoa.. that's deep, dude. pass the bong.

I know some Christians try to allow for God using evolution to create the earth.

Me, I'm a new earth person.

how do you define "god" to yourself?

new earth? is that anything like new age?

Certainly there are conceptions of god which are compatible with evolution.

But two different words for the same thing? Not without changing the meanings of one or the other beyond recognition.

I never know if you are serious or just trying to start an E-fight... but I'll play along.

Short answer: YES

Show my work:
Is it possible God created 'something" and gave this "something" the ability to evolve? Yes... or I should say ..I believe so. To answer the biblical counter question of "It says in the Bible that God created MAN in his image" I would say that it is possible that is what God explained to "man" once "man" was evolved into a free thinking creature.
Keep in mind...I am a Christian but I still believe that it's not only possible but highly likely that God did this and doesn't feel any duty to explain everything to us.

If God created all then who created God?
I've explained this to my kids like this: Our minds aren't capable of understanding everything.... as much as we want to believe that we can figure out and decipher anything on our own.... it's just not possible for us to understand somethings. Much like if you took a DVD and put it into the VCR player.... the VCR players can't understand what that DVD is...even though the DVD information is very real.

Back on track.... to take it to the simplest element... I do not think or believe that the entire solar system and beyond could have happened totally by chance. I do not believe that man could have evolved from a single cell organism totally by chance. I do believe that God or possibly Gods had a hand in creating the beginning of all that we know.

Speaking of pot talk.... it's extremely possible and highly likely that everything we know... our planet and solar system is a tiny speck living inside a much greater being.

Does God actually control everything from birth to death? I don't believe so. I think God put the wheels in motion and is probably seeing how things turn out. When it looks like things aren't turning out the way he planned.... flush the experiment and start over. (The Great Flood)

Everything I have stated here is my belief so before the haters and non-believers decide to pile on with what they know to be certain, please refer to the word believe.
Also no need to question my being a Christian and having a thinking mind. Believe it or not... unlike popular belief...we aren't all sheep.

your double standard is showing. if you aren't capable of understanding everything about god why do you think you are capable of understanding everything about nature?

god: creator of the universe. he createst the fruit of the vine.

evolution: creator of the universe. he createst the fruit of the vine.

yes, most understand evolution as only a biological process. but wouldn't a being that was only consciousness and not biology understand evolution beyond biology? wouldn't she see star formation, planet formation, etc. as all part of something we call "evolution"? wouldn't the reverse engineering of all that lead back to the big bang?



i respect all religions and i've never intentionally started an e-fight that i can recall.

i like your answer.



this is kind of like being able to perceive only 1 dimension and using tools and other models to represent the others which we know are there.



does evolution say that all creation is by chance? i don't know. if it does we might have to work to agree on a definition of "chance."

when i look at a spider i don't see a creature that makes a web just because she can. i see biological purpose.



if god and evolution are more or less the same thing then wouldn't humans (and all creatures) be in the image of god?

i think we're agreeing on this point.



from everything i've been reading lately it does seem like there's a very high chance that our universe exists within something much larger. awesome!

No double standard at all.... I never said I was capable of understanding everything about nature. Please point to where I confused you on that issue.

I accept that my beliefs may not be scientifically provable.

then what is your assertion that the universe isn't capable of existing without a creator based on? wishful thinking?

In other words: "Hey kids, occasionally someone or something will come along that seems to challenge your beliefs in a really, really bad way. Like, it will seem like your beliefs just don't make sense when you apply strict reason and logic to them. Well, kids, at times like those you just shrug your shoulders and realize Gawd is a fucking mystery. I mean, you might start thinking that you should re-examine your beliefs, but don't. Don't actually abandon or tweak your belief just because it seems absurd. Just use your FAITH to battle that pesky logic. Something you can't explain? GOD DID IT AND IT IS A MYSTERY! Something not make sense about your belief system? GOD DID IT AND WE CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND IT! See? It's fucking easy."

It's so sad kids are brainwashed in little ways like this all through their life.

Makes them end up retarded, like most of you non-critical fucks.



"Extremely possible"? What the fuck does that even mean? Possible.. in the EXTREEEEEME!

"Highly likely" that everything we know is a speck "living inside a much greater being"? Really? It's "highly likely"? Have you been doing some fucking ground breaking astronomy and physics work that we don't know about? Do you even know what "highly likely" means? What the fuck is your evidence for this "highly likely" state of affairs? Or are you just talking out of your ass.

Yes, it's extremely possible that you are highly likely talking out of your ass.

Most people don't examine their "beliefs" at all, and if they do they either don't have the proper tools to examine them, or are lazy about it.

Your conceptions are ate the fuck up, and it doesn't matter if you "believe" in tolerance, or whether you think your Santa Claus is in your heart, or whether you feel bad for those sad heathens that can't see your fucking fairy tale glory... your shit -does-not-make-sense.

Shit.

evolution is strictly a theory of how living organisms speciate. it says nothing at all about the origins of the universe.




the only "biological purpose" to evolution is adaptation for survival in a particular environment, which is a mechanistic intelligence-free process.
in other words not purpose at all in the sense you're apparently searching for.

Incorrect again my friend.

I never made any assertion at all... refer to the word "belief' again.

If my beliefs are different than yours, please don't feel either threatened or the need to convince me that I'm wrong.

It is my belief that some greater being started everything. It is my belief that a greater being is responsible for all that is.


See... I'm OK with the idea that I don't know everything and can't explain or prove everything.

If you are unable to carry on an adult conversation... why do you even come in here?
I'm talking "out of my ass" because I'm participating in a religious discussion and have different beliefs than you?

Wow.

Feel threatened often?

It's OK ..

this sort of answers the OP question about God and evolution... I agree that species do adapt as I do believe man adapted.

Some Christians have trouble relating modern man to Neandethal because of the time line and going back to the whole "in His own image' thing.... I don't.

Depending on ones definition of evolution I do believe God and evolution can co-exist.

One main difference between me and Crow is that I do believe a higher being started the process. To what extent...who knows.
Who cares for that matter.

when a rational (sane) person says they believe something to be true they ARE making an assertion. otherwise
you're saying your "belief" is no different than a child's belief in santa claus.

touche' Then my assertion is that a higher being...I shall refer to as God... began all that is.

I understand that my assertion does not make it true any more than anothers assertion makes it false.

Threatened. Heh. That's cute.

I deal with religious freaks far more "threatening" than you for a living. Literally. So please.

If you want to carry on an adult conversation, then learn the rules of logic, like an educated adult should.

If you make unsupported, logically inconsistent claims like a child, then you will be spoken to like a child.

Why in the world would someone put in the effort (eyes crow) necessary to speak to you in a rational way when you have cloistered yourself in this veil of ignorance? The main brunt of your argument, the main pillar of your position is admittedly that ignorance is ok with you. "I don't know and can never know, therefore I believe in [arbitrary belief system]."

By virtue of this "faith" reasonable discourse has precisely zero effect on you. If whatever belief system you've latched yourself on to said the sky was green, I could literally take you outside and show you the fucking sky and your response would be, "Well, it's probably an illusion, because The Honorable Right Glorious Lord Allah Jehovah Thor clearly states the sky is green. I don't know why it appears to be blue when I fucking look at it with my eyeballs, it's a god-damned mystery."

So, let's clear this up, my response isn't for you directly, I don't have time to clear away your delusions and undo years of your self-stupidity here on the board. My responses to you are so that people on the fence can clearly see how pathetic your arguments and beliefs are, and people who are already clear on that fact can get a chuckle while they nod their head.

I'm done with you... you obviously can't participate in an adult conversation where each side is allowed to propose their own thoughts. When you result to vulgar language it shows your ignorance.
Have a good day.

Yes, use of vulgar language, like Shakespeare was wont to do... belies ignorance indeed. Powerful addressing of the salient points.

I've pointed out your absurdity, and stifled even an attempt at argument... so indeed, you are done.

Logic wins the day! (With a little help from ad hominem.)

Have a fantastic period of hemispheric sunlight yourself!

Hollywood, you should actually try reading the above post instead of just dismissing it as spadey being an *******.



That's fine, but you're also ok with the idea that many of your "beliefs" fly in the face of logic. Which is why you aren't taken seriously a lot of the time.



You're the one that won't respond to him. Adult conversations include both sides responding to specific points, instead of one side making arguments while the other whines that he's being a big meanie.

LOL... OK.. I will read his post and respond.
Let's see if he's just being his usual ass or if anything he said deserves a response.
Allow me to recap first: My statement is simply that I believe a greater entity that most refer to as God was responsible for the beginning of all that is.

"It's so sad kids are brainwashed in little ways like this all through their life.

Makes them end up retarded, like most of you non-critical fucks."

So because I am Christian and my beliefs are different... my kids are retarded and I belong to a group of non-critical fucks. Well... there ya go.


Next:

"Do you even know what "highly likely" means? What the fuck is your evidence for this "highly likely" state of affairs? Or are you just talking out of your ass.

Yes, it's extremely possible that you are highly likely talking out of your ass. "

Because I mention the possibility that our universe as we know it make be a part of something even larger than imaginable... I'm talking out of my ass. Good one.



Finally:
"Your conceptions are ate the fuck up, and it doesn't matter if you "believe" in tolerance, or whether you think your Santa Claus is in your heart, or whether you feel bad for those sad heathens that can't see your fucking fairy tale glory... your shit -does-not-make-sense."

My assertions are different and can not be proven scientifically, ergo they do not make sense. (I chose to leave out the sophomoric F-bombs)

Spademan...STOP READING HERE:


-----------------
Truth is... I seriously feel sorry for anyone with as much hate and anger as 'some people' have. When we are no longer tolerant of others in their beliefs or traditions, we no longer function in a society and become our own cancer. That goes for Christians as well as non-believers. Crow is probably a devout atheist or agnostic and most likely thinks my (Christian) beliefs are completely wrong. He, however, is taken more seriously because he proposes actual facts and reasons rather than resorting to F-bombs and attempting to obtain a check-mate with simple assertions of "You're wrong and I'm right". Even though we are completely different people, I feel he and I could sit for hours and discuss rationally the differences in faith and science.


As for my beliefs flying in the face of logic.... Speedz... you are correct. I understand GOD can not be proven. I'm OK with that. I don't understand why non-believers can't accept that faith is more powerful than scientific logic when it comes to religion. (I also know that no matter how much faith I have in something...it doesn't make it so.... ie. I can have faith that fire wont burn me but science says it will)

If all of the religions are nothing more than a tool put in place by Constantine and early Roman rulers to control the masses... but they make some people feel good and decide to behave in a positive manner... what's the harm? (I opened a whole can there with pushing those beliefs on others...bla bla bla..., I know) You'll never hear me say that anyone elses beliefs are wrong...

No. Because your beliefs are logically inconsistent and you use "faith" to believe them anyway, you are a non-critical retarded fuck. Because you are teaching your kids the same thing, the will probably end up the same way.


No. Because you say "extremely possible" and "highly likely", not just "possible", without any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. That is why you are talking out of your ass. Nice try though.





Not just proven scientifically, not just different, LOGICALLY INCONSISTENT and therefore INVALID. You were close on this one though.




No.




Here is what you have to understand. I AM tolerant of your stupid ass beliefs. I even risk my life so that you can have them and spew them out in public and infect your children with them. I don't hold a gun to your head, I don't put you in camps and I don't execute you. Tolerating your beliefs does not mean ignoring them, agreeing with them, suffering them, or smiling and nodding pleasantly while you spout them. I can tolerate them and
point out their flaws and absurdity all at the same time.

Got to love democratic nations.



What you fail to realize about this, and especially the last line, is that it opens the door to all kinds of stupidity, ignorance and violence. You won't ever say that someone else's beliefs are wrong, eh? So when they fly planes into the world trade center, you just sit there and say... "well, their beliefs may be right... who am I to judge?" Really?

So when people are taking advantage of others, and I'm not just talking about religion here, or are putting their kids at risk because of their "beliefs"... well, that's fine right, because, well, we have to tolerate them and respect their beliefs right?

Stupid.

Finally, you do realize, and I'm asking this question legitimately, although it is pitiful that it must be asked... you do realize that when two conclusions contradict each other, that one or both of them MUST be wrong, ya?

You understand that, right? You understand that if you say 1 and 1 is 2, and I say 1 and 1 is 3, that at least ONE of us is wrong. You get that, don't you?

The world isn't as indecipherable as you seem to think it is. There is the ability -through logic, reason, study, trial and error and critical thinking- there is a way to show a "belief" is either true, false or at the very least likely, or unlikely.

Now, all of this will go in one ear and out the other, because you seem to have very little clue what critical thinking is, but that's ok.

Life will go on.

LOL....

OK you win.


I now believe the same way you do. Who could possibly argue with those intelligent words so eloquently spoken amongst the name calling and adjectives that have to bypass the filter.
Bravo ! Your debate team must be proud.


Baaaaa Baaaaaa

This is an epic, epic assraping.

Someone else might let you pretend that your stunned inability to make a cogent response stems from my occasional curse word.

I on the other hand recognize your complete lack of logical or rhetorical ability, and point out your pathetic red herring for what it is.

I could go back and edit out every curse word and ad hominem and you'd still have no valid or valuable reply.

I'm starting to feel like Ali standing in the ring pummeling on Gilbert Grape though, so I'll retire from the discussion as well if you want.

So it goes.

-Jack K.

No no... you absolutely win.
Congrats on disproving a 2,000 year old religion, or all religions for that matter, with your words.


Good job.

Adorable.

You don't even understand that this wasn't about disproving religion, was simply a matter of showing that none of your tripe is based on evidence, examination, logic or any sort of critical thinking, and should thus be seen for the lazy, culturally adopted babble that it is.

So you come back with red herring, non-sequitur sarcasm couched in poorly constructed ramblings.

I feel like pinching your cheeks you're so cute.



Anyhow, I digress. My favorite Kerouac book is Timequake. Yours?

Spadey, this is the punch Ali never gave Foreman. Or the other way around. I forget.

Wow... I'm pretty sure I already accepted that my beliefs can not be proven nor is it based on any evidence.
If I go too fast let me know.

Let me go back through all the evidence you have posted to validate your counter claims I made that a higher power is responsible for all that is.....


looking....


still looking......


Hmmm.. can you point me to anything you've offered for the other side other than "Na na na boo boo... you're wrong"

Just ONE piece of evidence that could prove which came first...the chicken or the egg.

Crow...don't help him either.... let's let him try out his new Google toolbar.

Why do you keep referring to Kurt Vonnegut Jr. as Jack Kerouac? It's weird.

I was waiting for someone to mention that.

People sometimes get mad when it comes to Vonnegut.

I also call Will Smith Chris Rock every time. Every single time.

One of these days I'm not going to be able to separate the two for real, then I'm in trouble.

You are a raging idiot...

Your posts are providing all of the evidence necessary to support the points I have made, which, further supporting one of my claims, you have missed altogether.

Yes, so you have changed the meaning of 'evolution' beyond recognition. In crow's words



If you expand any concept so widely that it includes everything, it will always be identical to every other concept which you have expanded to include everything.

This

I guess the God of the Bible.

I don't know that I can wirte anything that could explain God to someone that has never had a concept of God. Which is why I think God put His definition in all of us. we all know what we mean when we say God.

Unless we are trying to force God into a box so we can show that He's not God that is.



But the whole belief in evolution is moot in the sense that a person's salvation is completely seperate from your belief in where the world came from. You are not expected to pass a test on what is or isn't true, only confirm that you've accepted Christ's sacrifice to pay for your sins, in order to gain eternal salvation.

There will be plenty of time for argueing the inconsequential things in heaven.

Very well put

you are the cult-speak king. impressive stuff.

hmmm. i see your point. i suppose that, like all language and the actual construction of verbal communication, there will never be what i would call a "true" agreement. your understanding of any word will always stray from my understanding of that same word.



you mean YOUR theory of evolution? Is it possible that someone else could perceive it from a larger scope?



wouldn't celestial bodies also need to survive? could you consider the asteroid belt as an "extinct planet" or one that was not adapted for survival in his environment?

couldn't things like evolution, perception, the arrow of time moving forward, the dimensions, the "strings", etc. be designed intelligently by a force outside the universe that we are not able to perceive? i don't know, but i think that in all likelyhood someone has a sense of humor.

"the good news is that our lives have purpose; the bad news is that their purpose is to help some remote hacker estimate pi to nine jillion decimal places."

-Edward Fredkin

no. a larger scope would be a different theory. you'd have to call it something else and be a lot more specific about
what you're actually postulating.



no



no and no. and drugs are bad.



possibly, but the objective evidence we currently have and occam's razor suggest otherwise. in other words there is zero evidence that an intelligent force beyond our perception is necessary for things to be as they are, and invoking one without evidence just adds unnecessary complexity.

is it possible that in the future we will have a much better understanding of what we currently call evolution? that as we define it and narrow it down it necessitates that we get a larger scope of it?

haven't scientists always had their theories reshaped? darwin's understanding of evolution may have been less than 10% of what my understanding of evolution is. couldn't kids in 80 years will have 100x the understanding of it that i do?

do you think it makes sense to call evolution "increasing levels of order and complexity"?

where does evolution (only as biology) begin? does it start w/ protiens, replicating DNA, bacteria, or something else? who should decide where evolution begins?



i don't feel that i'm postulating these concepts and models all from my head.

i've been reading books that have opened my thinking to other perceptions. i'm currently trying to find out how you guys answer these questions. saying that i'm on drugs seems to me a juvenile way to debate a linguistics game.



if one person says "the reason i am here is evolution" and another person says "the reason i am here is god" don't they both have the same search? though they may approach it differently it seems like they are both trying to figure out their history and their universe.

do you feel it limits ones pursuit of the universe if they are in any way affected by the dogma of religion? why do you have a bad taste in your mouth from the "god" word? please explain.

Too late. Heh.

The problem is in defining this "god"

When you define this free range god of yours, it will either be a giant, limited alien from outer space that may be possible in theory, that you have no evidence for and just like to think is out there for whatever reason - or a more garden variety being of logical impossibilities that couldn't exist even if the absurd stories behind its myth resembled anything plausible.

How do you define your particular man in the sky?

i don't think there's any man in the sky. if anything it's a woman.

but anyway, a bird doesn't know what a bird is doing. it's just being a bird. if Bird A is being a "good" bird he is doing whatever is best for the species as best he knows how (competition for food or for sex or whatver). Bird A's ancestors increased the chances that Bird A would get to live by being "good" birds. maybe god is what being a good bird is. the force that drives what many of us call evolution, or (as only can i see it) the force that makes me want to be a "good" man.

Oh.

Yes. I postulated that long ago and was berated mercilessly by the powers that be in this forum as it were, my theory as it were that God could be nothing more than just energy, life force if you will, that thing that goes away when the line goes straight and the sound goes beeeeeeeep, and no one seems to know how to replace once it vanishes for good. Now, having said that, I feel kind of silly saying "nothing more than" being that it's the most powerful force like,ever, and while destructible completely unduplicitable(I don't think that's a word but **** it) except by the creation of another host.

Refreshing in it's unabashed assholery. How you been big fella?