I've been playing around with different combinations of hands on twodimes, in particular to help me understand matchups between high and low hands. The next step is to figure out the best way to apply the calculations at the table. Here are some of my observations:

1) In heads-up pots, low hands always have the equity advantage over high-only hands

2) High-only hands become favorites only when there are several low hands involved in a pot

3) However, high-only hands lose their multi-way equity edge if another hand with two-way potential is included, however marginal

4) Although AAxx is an underdog heads-up against a low hand, it becomes a favorite if any low potential is added to the hand (e.g., AAKT with a suited Ace is a dog against 2356 but AAT5 rainbow is a fav over the same hand)

5) Even marginal high pair & low hands are favs against strong lows heads-up (e.g., JJA7 rainbow is a coinflip fav over A235 with a suited Ace)

6) Marginal high pair & low hands do even better against several low hands - e.g., JJA7 rainbow is 45.5% vs A235 with a suited Ace (33.8%) and A348 with a different suited Ace (20.6%)

Thoughts? What I'm trying to do is figure out how these numbers might affect preflop play at low stakes LO8.

Man, those observations seem like they could be really helpful. Thanks for posting. As far as application, I'm not sure. I try and play heads up matches, so a lot of this is obviously useful in those situations. A lot of people at these low stakes (you're playing .25/.50 ftp, right?) tend to feel good with any low hand, no matter how shitty. It seems that maybe high only hands and shitty pairs with some low potential might be better than you'd think in the multi-way pots that always go down.

o8 (the limit variant at least) is a whole lot more about avoiding bad reverse implied situations when determining proper preflop action than it is about straight up equity. the important thing to note about all of that is that all of the spots (with only a few exceptions) are pretty close, and that strictly equity-wise, there's not really anything that's truly a "preflop mistake."

concentrate more on postflop play, and pushing vs. pulling. those are the keys to limit o8.

I would have thought the preflop equity numbers are actually more relevant in LO8 than PLO8 because hands are much more likely to go to showdown. Isn't that why high-only hands are more valuable in heads-up pots in PLO8, because you can use pot-sized bets to push people off their hands on the flop?

not really, since in lo8, you can only get in four bets pre, whereas in plo8, if you're 3betting light a fair amount, you're going to accidentally get yourself priced in to go with a hand preflop when you are sacrificing 5-10% equity on a whole stack going in. the former ain't so bad, but the latter can really crush you longterm.

in general, when i play lo8, i either raise all hands that i play preflop or limp all hands that i play, with very little exception, to remain unexploitable on that street.

I'm not sure I follow. Explain to me why preflop equity percentages aren't more relevant in a game where hands are more likely to go to showdown? For example, in NLHE preflop equity is far more relevant for all-in decisions because those hands are guaranteed to go to showdown whereas most other NLHE hands are won before showdown.

I certainly don't 3-bet lightly in either game. But can you explain your point about limping or raising all hands to remain unexploitable?

what i mean is that it's significantly unlikely to see better than a 60/40 preflop edge, tops, in o8, so even if you get in four bets in that kind of spot, it's not a huge boon or bane longterm. because of this, you're often better off, generally, capping or limping every hand you play so that your (thinking) opponents have literally no info on what kind of hand you hold based on the preflop action.

for instance, if an abc player raises 4 limpers, i am about 90% certain that he has a23 or a24 and can play almost perfectly against him postflop.

PLO8 is am implied odds game and usually the money goes in after the flop. Preflop edges are so small.

High only hands are more able to push off low draws with pot sized bets. You are correct.

Okay, that's what I thought you were saying. Though I think you can probably add AAxx to the abc raiser, at least at the lower levels. At this point I'm playing basically a limp-always strategy precisely because every time I think about raising, I realize that it's just going to telegraph my hand. And I'm not so keen on the raise-always alternative.

low draws probably fold too much, especially against good aggressive players.

Raise-always is most effective on tables where it actually narrows the field, or ultra-loose tables where people will put 2 bets in pre-flop happily with 238J or whatever.

In a split pot game, pots you win before showdown aren't split. That's the beauty of aggression on tighter tables. And on the loose tables it's always nice to see flops where the pots have an obscene amount of bets in it and you hold a lot more nut-potential than the average hand you've been seeing shown down from across the table.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=5505100
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 2c 3h 5s 6d - ah ad kh ts
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2c 6d 3h 186091 186091 313909 0 270367 0 0 0.497
Ts Ad Ah Kh 189553 313909 186091 0 0 0 0 0.503

The observation about high versus low hands doesn't always hold true... There are many permutations where the high hand has a slight edge. Your observation makes more sense when you assume at least two of the cards in the low hand are of the same suit:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=5505106
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 2c 3h 5s 6s - ah ad kh ts
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 5s 2c 3h 203166 203166 296834 0 270171 0 0 0.524
Ts Ad Ah Kh 179473 296834 203166 0 0 0 0 0.476

But if you make the aces double suited, and find the right arrangement of low cards, it's almost even:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=5505130
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 2c 3d 4s 6s - ah ad kh td
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4s 2c 3d 182074 182074 317926 0 269920 0 0 0.501
Ad Td Ah Kh 180749 317926 182074 0 0 0 0 0.499

Make it a double pair (double-suited or single-suited), and the edge swings back to the high:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=5505136
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 2c 3d 4s 6s - ah ad th td
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4s 2c 3d 166806 166806 333194 0 270049 0 0 0.478
Ad Td Ah Th 188668 333194 166806 0 0 0 0 0.522

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=5505138
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 2c 3d 4s 6s - ah ad th ts
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 4s 2c 3d 173590 173590 326410 0 270128 0 0 0.483
Ts Ad Ah Th 190261 326410 173590 0 0 0 0 0.517

True, but the bottom line is that AAxx hands don't stack up well against low hands. You basically have to have an almost ideal matchup (the best AAxx hand against the worst low hand) just to get a slight edge. If you run all the possible permutations of AAxx vs low hands I'd think that the low hands would come out on top overall.

Agreed, but we aren't going all-in preflop.. That low hand is going to make bottom pair on the flop and two pair on the river, but that isn't going to automatically allow the guy holding it to a. ) see the river, b. ) win the pot pre-river, or c. ) take control of the hand to begin with. The guy holding AA is going to have b. ) and c. ) in his favor, making the showdown value of the weaker holding sketchy at best.

Simply put, knowing how T7 stacks up against AK is a lot more useful in NLHE. And it's pretty rare in most instances to be playing Lo8 pots heads-up until the turn card has been flipped up.

this thread is tilting me, lol.

a great deal of the reason naked AA hands are so hard to play isn't that they "don't stack up well against low hands" or whatever--it's that if they get action, they're generally beat for at least half a pot. this is why pure equity calculations are virtually useless in o8--the situation virtually always changes profoundly on various flop textures, and if you're a good player playing against relatively poor players, you can play pretty much any hand without a low pair and get away with it. not joking.

And you're virtually guaranteed to get action at low stakes LO8. In PLO8 you can build the pot PF and then take it down on the flop with a pot bet with your naked AA. That's not going to happen in LO8, at least not nearly as often. That's why I don't think the equity calculations are as irrelevant as you say they are. In a game where people are much more likely to call down to the river, the PF equity matchups become much more relevant.

I don't think knowing your pre-flop equity in Omaha 8 is nearly as important as it is in other games. The texture of the game is generally what will determine what hands you play pre-flop and how you play them. For instance in a tight game AA hands do better in where as in a loose game one way hands like A235 and QJT9 have alot more value. Also the better a player you are the more you can get away with since you will be playing better then your opponents after the flop. Omaha 8 is alot more about post-flop situations, exploiting small edges in hands, and knowing when to let people in and when to push them out.

This information would be useful for PLO8 tournament play, where preflop allin situations happen relatively frequently.

In LO8, preflop equity is a very minor portion of the game. The most important factor is how hands play postflop. JJA7 is a worse hand than A235 not because of preflop equity, but because of the post-flop situations that arise. If you hold JJA7, practically the only way you make money is with set over set and even that is somewhat dubious because people don't generally play hands with low pairs.

With As2s35, you have numerous situations where you can freeroll the suckers - like a board of 467sQs where one opponent is holding a naked A2 and the other has QQ. That is the main difference. If you call preflop with JJA7, you'll probably have to fold the flop if you don't hit, but with A235 there are many more flops that you will continue with and maybe backdoor a win.

It's kind of like why you do not get excited by 22 preflop in holdem - okay, you are a favorite against AK, but it is impossible to play your hand if you do not connect with the flop.