CO is a decent reg. BB who mini3bets is a huge drooler. I don't think I can fold pf, thoughts when I get checked to on flop?

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

SB ($1162)
BB ($678)
UTG ($631.75)
NoSup4U (MP) ($1042)
CO ($1000)
Button ($1000)

Preflop: NoSup4U is MP with ,
1 fold, NoSup4U raises $35, CO calls $35, 2 folds, BB raises $50, NoSup4U calls $25, CO calls $25

Flop: ($185) , , (3 players)
BB checks

Steal? Give up?

Mark

I'd typically just give up here.

You could probably take a stab at it if it was heads up, but the fact that I don't really expect the BB to fold that much of his range, coupled with the fact we're out of position against a regular makes me lean more towards checking. I realize the CO's preflop calling range is still relatively wide but I suspect that even betting out like $95 won't get them to both fold often enough to be profitable.

I only play $25NL though, but way down there I wouldn't really expect the BB to fold Ax, Kx, many pocket pairs and even hands like QT/QJ/JT.

i feel like stabbing here is going to get the reg to fold a lot of the time, but you have to wonder if the bb is going to check fold a hand like KQ/KJ and also hands like 1010-qq

if so, i dont hate stabbing at all, but my "standard" would be to give up prob

I really don't like betting into two people here. It's unlikely the reg has much he can flat or raise the flop with, but will the drooler really c/f any top pair, or even middle pair?

I really want to steal. I think that this board either hit BB hand really hard or scares him to death. CO while he is probably aware that you couldnt of hit this board harder then top pair or bottom set, I dont think he would make a move on you with the BB still to act.

So I would bet , if CO calls I would be done with it since it looks like a bad spot to float. If BB calls depending on how the cards run out I might fire a river bet if checked to since he would probably never check a set or pair of aces. This all depends on if the guy is a
"I has a pair of kings no fold possible" drooler or "i call with hands to try and hit my runner runner, opps didnt happen now i should fold" drooler, if the guy is the first type then i would just not try and push him off his pair of 8's on flop or river. The second type , i might fire river.

What kinds of hands have been shown in the last 8 orbits or so / what been shown down?
The ranges of both players might be pretty broad.
If they are laying down, I'm pretty confident making a steal here.

Do you have stats? I'd check/give up all the time normally. It's interesting that CO hand is probably a pocket pair or something like QTss a lot more than it is something like AQ+, or he would have taken the opportunity to iso the drooler with all your dead money in the pot. So it makes it more likely that CO will either have no hand, or possibly fold the best hand if you bet.

For the drooler, it scares me that he min3bet, then checked a very good flop for min3betting. It's really impossible to find the best ocurse of action without more info than "drooler". Do you have 3bet stats? I think absent of some good reads like that stuff, to just play it standard and give up.

We didn't hit our set, we don't have the luxury of "live tells," we don't even have THAT much information on the players - looks like a standard spot to check/fold and hope for better luck next time. I think that, best case scenario, drooler has a hand like JJ, but then he's never folding, is he? I mean, great players cannot fold a pocket pair, no way, no how, and he's a great player. Worst case scenario is that we're drawing close to dead to his "slowplayed" KK/AA...second worst case, and most likely, is that he's holding a stupid ace-rag type hand and is willing to felt it.

We don't really ever need to worry about CO. He's probably got a hand much like yours - drawing to hit big. I considered that he'd have AK/KK+, wanting to trap the drooler in the hand, figuring he'd 3-bet weakly, but then he should 4-bet it up once he gets what he wanted.

Mark

where you playing live or on line?

if it was live, where you picking up any tells?

and what was the previous plays like with the 2 players?

My guess is BB is trying to make it look like he is setting you up for a check raise

options 1. check , and if bet is made fold

2. Place a steal attempt bet , of $450-500

3. Place a test the waters bet of $200-250 see if there is any reaction if there is then fold
but I don't like this option in a 3 man race

so Option 3 out, would like to know the other variables otherwise option 1

pls let me know what you did as the outcome thx

Rose

I posted this hand mostly because as the hand played out it seemed to me like a pretty good spot to steal so I thought it might be useful for the forum.

My thoughts on the hand:

I raise in EP which to most people at the table would indicate I have a fairly strong hand. They probably view my range as wider than they should because my stats are looser than most, but in general I have a good hand here.

CO calls behind me. He is a good player and almost never has a big ace here. His range is full of suited connectors and pocket pairs. He's certainly capable of flatting AA/KK/AK but its unlikely that he is, and a certainty that he doesn't have these hands when the 4bet gets back to him and he just flat calls.

Now the BB mini4bets which for a lot of these guys means aces or kings, and for the weird ones it can mean any two cards. I normally weight their range pretty heavily towards JJ+ until they show me differently. Obv I'm calling such a small raise with such good implied odds and I know CO is coming along as well.

So flop comes out AK7r, super dry. No draws, no anything, and BB checks. IMO he either has a set of aces or kings, or can't continue on this board. I don't think he ever checks a big ace here. So his range is a monster or he folds. And as to the CO behind me, unless he has 77 he can't continue here if I lead out into 2 people because he almost never has an A, and even if he has A5s or something, he has to auto muck it when I bet, because my range is filled with big aces below AK.

So I thought this was a good hand to bet 2/3 pot and if BB folds half of the time I'm making good money and I think its reasonable that its at best 50/50 he has AA/KK here. And if he continues in the hand then obv I'm done. My only worry was that since BB was a donk he might not be able to fold QQ here for one bet all the time. But I thought since the A and K came out that would increase those odds a bunch. If the flop was just A72r or something I'd be less inclined to steal because donks have a hard time folding big pairs to just one overcard no matter how much its likely that you hit it.

Mark

I was thinking maybe we could away with betting less. With what hands does he call 1/2 pot (or even 1/3 pot) but fold for 2/3 pot? And because the flop is so dry, I don't think it's an unreasonable bet size for a real hand either.

Totally agree. My reasoning in this hand for betting 2/3 pot was that BB is kind of a donk, and 2/3 pot was $100. So generally I think that donks can't fold to 'smallish' bets even though they should, and that the psychological barrier of the $100 mark is big to them. So normally if BB was a good player, if I bet $75 or $100 here its irrelevant to their folding range. But since BB was a donk, I thought it would be perceived by him as a much stronger bet and thus widen his folding range. (I think he calls $75 with QQ because it 'looks' weak and steal-y.)

Do you guys find this to be true as well?

Mark

increadably true.
I was watching a video from DC and one of the instuctors was talking about making the last 2 numbers in a 4 digit number bigger as a way of making the bet seem scarier then it is. 3187 instead of 3103. This probably has more application to us in tourneys since none of us are 25/50 regs but i found it interesting.

so my bet to steal was way to big ? same with the testing the water bet? wow

we have 3 casino's in the falls all 3 player ranges are so different

all 3 have 2/5 but I have seen tables at all 3 played with a wide betting range

at fallsview where they have the wpt, I seen flop bets of 150-200, then the turn at 400-and up
more pro's hang out here
at Niagara where I play not as aggressive, but you can stick to small ball more flop 75-100 turn 200-350
better set up, nicer room, great sports betting area
at Seneca USA side also more aggressive but in between the other 2
not bad, love the tournies there


by the way it great to hear your thoughts on the play
the rational behind it. Great learning tool

you do realize that bet sizes should be in relation to the pot though...right?

of course approx 50- 60% of pot size

omg flop 185 so 75-100 makes sense

Against players who know what they are doing, yes. However, I like ramping up the action against "droolers." A 200% pot bet is not out of line against the right drooler IMHO. Provided we are ahead in the hand, I mean.