This was about the 25th hand I'd say, and I had only literally had one face card (a Q) before this, and no pairs either. A lot of 9-5o, 9-4o as I recall. This structure starts with 1500 in chips but blinds are 25-50 to start, and then each time they increase they double (though at least the levels are 30 min. long). We are playing for nightly prizes plus ultimately a ticket to a WSOP satellite tourney.

Anyway, I'm in the BB with 1075, the blinds were 50-100. UTG is a pretty solid player (and btw, this group in general plays a lot more solidly than bar tourneys I've played elsewhere) but I did not have a read on him in terms of this particular hand. He limped, everyone else folded including the small blind, and it's my option. I look down and see JJ, which looks like aces after the crap hands I've been getting. No one's been knocked out at our table, though, and not sure if anyone was at the other two, so avg. is still about 1500. What now?

Depends on how active the table has been with pre-flop raising or just alot of limping? If it has been really aggressive pre-flop and he limps UTG then I would be very suspicious of AA or KK and might limp and re-evaluate. On the other hand if there has been alot of passive play pre-flop then the limp looks standard and I may pop it 3x the BB here. How much does UTG have left is another piece of info I need to make this decision more precise.

Dont think you can do anything but shove, if he has a big pair oh well

This.

There is 250 in the pot and we have JJ. I don't see any other play.

If the table has been really aggressive raising pre-flop and a "solid player" UTG limps in, that is sounding off alarms in my head, but thats just me. Any other scenario and I'm going broke with JJ as well. I mainly was saying we needed more info to give optimal advice. Hopefully that cleared things up a little bit, take it fwiw.

Okay, more info:

Table has been...average, I'd say. It hasn't been that long that the blinds have been this high, so limping has slowed down, but it wasn't extreme before. Most pots have been HU or three way (8 total at the table btw).

I actually felt like I was desperate enough for chips that I wanted to sort of slow play this and try to lure some action (is that idiotic?), so I raised to 400, and villain called the extra 300. Flop comes Axx and I'm first to act. Pot is 850, and I've got 675 left (villain has at least twice that). Now what?

I'd only shove because, with an M below 10 or 10 BB, however you look at it, we need a double up or some stack building, and right now no one's showing strength. Though it does happen, the chances that someone just limped AA-QQ or AK are pretty small. Get it in and maybe someone calls light or with a big non-pair, but more than likely, we pick up a few extra BB.

The things I crossed out are pretty worthless to the thread, beyond saying you probably have a tight image. I doubt anybody is paying attention, and even if they are, they aren't adjusting properly anyways.


I think we need a really good read to not shove this.

I look down and see JJ, which looks like aces after the crap hands I've been getting.

Based on this, I have a hard time beleiving that the "solid" read is accurate.


I don't like a shove. It folds out worse and anything better has to call. I check, and depending on any reads, either call a shove or fold.

With 11bb, I really prefer a shove preflop and I never get in this situation. In a bar league you are getting called by worse.

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Just for fun, say we check, and he checks behind. What do we do on a blank turn? a K or Q turn? What about a blank?

What's that supposed to mean?

My calling him a solid player is based on having played with him for literally years, both in this bar poker league and in "extracurricular" games for money (usually $40-50 buyin, 15-30 players). A lot of these people honestly don't play that differently when they are playing in the bar league compared to playing for money. Note for instance that in the hand in question, six of the eight players at the table folded preflop despite there being no raises--not uncommon with the local "poker culture" that has developed in this bar league, but far different from what I've seen and heard about elsewhere. Which is not to say these people are a bunch of poker geniuses (they are critical of me for shoving in low M situations, and they pay too little attention to position); but they are "solid" in the sense of folding preflop unless they have a relatively strong hand. And this guy plays fewer hands than most.

It's a bar tourney and even if it wasn't, I would still shove.

Okay, so after I made it 400 more and villain called, flop came Axx. I'm first to act.

I'd shove the rest in. I don't think there's any flop that I won't shove on after this play.

Please... please... please... never raise half your stack and NOT intend on getting it in on the flop. In fact, just never raise half your stack. I have heard advice in this area basically saying that if you're going to raise and that raise is >30% (might be a different number, but you get the idea) of your stack, just raise all in. Here, it's really a no brainer... Push in preflop. Your stack doesn't allow for postflop play at this point, and you need to play hands like 1010+ here aggressively.

I have seen alot of this, it's ridiculous tbh. Yesterday in a tourney, a player in the sb minraises half his stack, the BB shoves on him and SB insta-mucks. Then 2 hands later, I shove A8 from UTG and get instacalled by that SB with QJo, takes about 1/3 my stack.

I like the guy earlier who called a reraise for 75% of his stack and check/folded the flop.

I'm familiar with the concept, and if anything I'm a little quicker to go into preflop shove/fold mode than most people here. But in this case I was hoping to make a little more on the hand, thinking he would be likely to just fold preflop if I shoved but perhaps call a smaller raise.

Anyway, I did shove the flop, and he thought a minute and called--with KK. My flop shove was nearly a pot-sized bet, though, and I wondered if at least against some players the line I took might not have been the best chance I had of getting out of this hand alive. Put yourself in villain's shoes: would none of you fold your kings to that bet with an ace showing?

Not really. I mean, it goes back to you raising almost half your stack, doesn't matter what the flop brings, I'm shoving on an AKQ board. So if he folds there, he would of just been spewing.

So how much would someone have to have behind to make you fold KK with an A showing on the flop?