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uncooper
When villains are running good I have a tougher time getting a read on them. Just because he bets the (situational) nuts, doesn't mean his bets are always honest/transparent. It just means he's had the nuts, lol. Here are my notes so far:

3b my button raise in the sb and then took 2. might not suck;
b/c oop w a made 9, and then pats 3rd draw, checks;
showing cards that suggest that bets are honest, 20% chance hes leveling;

Here is the previous hand:

PokerStars Game #22052547340: Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($0.10/$0.20) - 2008/11/15 2:04:10 ET
Table 'Phoinix' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: danny purse ($2.85 in chips)
Seat 6: toyo8 ($8.42 in chips)
toyo8: posts small blind $0.05
danny purse: posts big blind $0.10
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to danny purse [2c Jh 5d 8s Qc]
toyo8: raises $0.10 to $0.20
danny purse: raises $0.10 to $0.30
toyo8: raises $0.10 to $0.40
Betting is capped
danny purse: calls $0.10
*** FIRST DRAW ***
danny purse: discards 2 cards [Jh Qc]
Dealt to danny purse [2c 5d 8s] [4h 3d]
toyo8: stands pat
danny purse: checks
toyo8: bets $0.10
danny purse: raises $0.10 to $0.20
toyo8: calls $0.10
*** SECOND DRAW ***
danny purse: stands pat on [2c 5d 8s 4h 3d]
toyo8: stands pat
danny purse: bets $0.20
toyo8: calls $0.20
*** THIRD DRAW ***
danny purse: stands pat on [2c 5d 8s 4h 3d]
toyo8: stands pat
danny purse: bets $0.20
toyo8: calls $0.20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
danny purse: shows [2c 4h 5d 8s 3d] (Lo: 8,5,4,3,2)
toyo8: shows [5s 9s 6d 4c 2s] (Lo: 9,6,5,4,2)
danny purse collected $1.91 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2 | Rake $0.09
Seat 3: danny purse (big blind) showed [2c 4h 5d 8s 3d] and won ($1.91) with Lo: 8,5,4,3,2
Seat 6: toyo8 (button) (small blind) showed [5s 9s 6d 4c 2s] and lost with Lo: 9,6,5,4,2

Hand in question:

PokerStars Game #22052554733: Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($0.10/$0.20) - 2008/11/15 2:04:42 ET
Table 'Phoinix' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 3: danny purse ($3.76 in chips)
Seat 6: toyo8 ($7.42 in chips)
danny purse: posts small blind $0.05
toyo8: posts big blind $0.10
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to danny purse [7d 8d 3s 3d 4c]
danny purse: raises $0.10 to $0.20
toyo8: calls $0.10
*** FIRST DRAW ***
toyo8: discards 1 card
danny purse: discards 1 card [3d]
Dealt to danny purse [7d 8d 3s 4c] [Ah]
toyo8: bets $0.10
danny purse: calls $0.10
*** SECOND DRAW ***
toyo8: stands pat
danny purse: discards 1 card [Ah]
Dealt to danny purse [7d 8d 3s 4c] [2d]
toyo8: bets $0.20
danny purse: raises $0.20 to $0.40

We like?
Chet Chetterson
1st hand: I think you both played it wrong. The pre-draw 3-bet is either something you thought is the correct move or you are trying to disguish your other hands with a fancy play. I don't think 2-3-8-X-X is strong enough to three bet as you are drawing two (others correct me if I'm wrong). Also, at this level if you did this as a fancy play you should not need to at micro stakes. Likewise it looks like you raised with 2-3-5-X-X and hit gin, so he can't possibly think his 9 is good and should break it.

2nd hand: I don't mind the raise to see where you are at, however you may not be ahead here none the less. If he three bets you are you going to break? If he plays a 9 too fast he will certainly play an 8-6 that way too.
uncooper
QUOTE (Chet Chetterson @ Saturday, November 15th, 2008, 1:47 PM) *
1st hand: I think you both played it wrong. The pre-draw 3-bet is either something you thought is the correct move or you are trying to disguish your other hands with a fancy play. I don't think 2-3-8-X-X is strong enough to three bet as you are drawing two (others correct me if I'm wrong). Also, at this level if you did this as a fancy play you should not need to at micro stakes. Likewise it looks like you raised with 2-3-5-X-X and hit gin, so he can't possibly think his 9 is good and should break it.

2nd hand: I don't mind the raise to see where you are at, however you may not be ahead here none the less. If he three bets you are you going to break? If he plays a 9 too fast he will certainly play an 8-6 that way too.


Thanks for your comments. A few quick points:

I'm playing this guy heads up, so we are both raising our SB (button) pretty light. I actually had 852 in the first hand, but it's still strong enough to 3b here every time. This was probably about 40 hands into the match, and I hadn't seen anything yet to suggest that he wouldn't show up with 23xxx or 876 or worse, plus I find that lots of villains adjust poorly to aggression, plus I take the lead in the hand when we have relatively similar equity, which is a good amount of the time.

Regarding the 2nd hand, I think a distinction needs to be made. Villains like this don't play their 9s fast. We saw from the first hand that he probably keeps his nines too early, and probably keeps them too long, but he just passively called down with it. You can see from my notes that in a previous hand he bet/called with a nine out of position, then patted and checked to his opponent who had taken a card.

If he 3bets I'll have to call down, but he is like never ever 3betting 86 here, and probably not even 85 (which btw is a truly colossal mistake imo that I see all the time at this level). His 3b range here is mostly random spew and 7s, which together represent a really small portion of his range (compared to nines and various rough eights, which make up the meat of his range).

I don't think I was trying to "see where I was at", as much as I thought I could get called by a worse hand, would rarely get 3bet, and would apply pressure to an opponent that would likely adjust poorly to aggression.

I'm not defensively trying to argue that the raise was proper; I don't post hands to pat myself on the back. Just thought I would clear up the way I was thinking about the hands and the villain so that the play can be properly criticized.
Chet Chetterson
I misread that it was heads up, which completely changes everything. My apologies.
Pdiddydog
In hand 1 you can 3 bet in that spot but calling is also fine as long as your calling with your stronger 2 card draws as well, the rest of the hand is standard. The second hand I like calling and pating behind him, for a couple reasons 1) It insures yourself the pot because he has no chance to break his hand and 2) You will lose the minimum if he woke up with a monster.
uncooper
QUOTE (Pdiddydog @ Saturday, November 15th, 2008, 9:16 PM) *
In hand 1 you can 3 bet in that spot but calling is also fine as long as your calling with your stronger 2 card draws as well, the rest of the hand is standard. The second hand I like calling and pating behind him, for a couple reasons 1) It insures yourself the pot because he has no chance to break his hand and 2) You will lose the minimum if he woke up with a monster.


This was the main thing I was thinking about. A few considerations:

I have a lot of cards that he would need in order to have a hand that should be considered breakable (plus the 3 that I ditched to start the hand).

I haven't seen this guy pat and then later break (this is actually pretty rare at all at this level), so I don't know if it's in his arsenal or what hands he will break with.

If you call (pat, pat) and he checks riv, you wanna valuebet?
Pdiddydog
QUOTE (uncooper @ Saturday, November 15th, 2008, 7:26 PM) *
This was the main thing I was thinking about. A few considerations:

I have a lot of cards that he would need in order to have a hand that should be considered breakable (plus the 3 that I ditched to start the hand).

I haven't seen this guy pat and then later break (this is actually pretty rare at all at this level), so I don't know if it's in his arsenal or what hands he will break with.

If you call (pat, pat) and he checks riv, you wanna valuebet?

He may not break but you still have to worry about him having a 86 or better so I still think calling is clearly the better play in this spot. If he checks it would most likely mean he has a rough 87 or a 9 so I would value town it if he checks and make a crying call if he bet.
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