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mekan0001
This hand happened tonight and am interested to see your thoughts. Villain had been playing quite tight, but had raised my bb on previous occasions when folded to him. This is this first time I took a stand. Is this a standard play, or did I make a mistake?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 32000 Tournament, 15000/30000 Blinds 4000 Ante (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) (t554382)
UTG (t892602)
MP (t2337839)
Button (t528314)
SB (t501863)

Hero's M: 8.53

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3 icon_suit_club.gif, A icon_suit_diamond.gif
3 folds, SB raises to t90000, Hero calls t60000

Flop: (t200000) 5 icon_suit_diamond.gif, 8 icon_suit_diamond.gif, A icon_suit_spade.gif (2 players)

SB bets t90000, Hero raises to t460382 (All-In)
sennin
I think id rather shove preflop since you're under 20bbs and if he's been stealing from SB like you say it's probably +ev. As played I'd shove the flop
mrpossum
If you ran into a bigger ace then just take the beating and move on.
There is really nothing much you can do.
Even if you flat the flop you will most probably be getting it in on the turn.
REvans84
I would think my hand is good here and I would personally flat this flop in the hope that he might try and bluff again on the turn or river.
If he is c-betting we can afford to give Kx Qx type hands a free card. He could put you on a flush draw and try to push you off it on the turn or river if the 3rd diamond doesnt hit and you will win 1 extra bet.

By shoving here as you did, if he was c-betting with KQ, QJ hes folding.
If he is the one with the flush draw hes getting 2-to-1 which is close to the right price with 2 cards to come so he would most probably be calling anyway.
The only hands that you are not going to like him holding if you flat is a PP but then he is only drawing to 2 outs.
If he has a better ace, so be it.
SGFULTON83
QUOTE (sennin @ Wednesday, November 12th, 2008, 3:18 AM) *
I think id rather shove preflop since you're under 20bbs and if he's been stealing from SB like you say it's probably +ev. As played I'd shove the flop


+1
dscoot
I see 0 reason to shove the flop. If hes got a worse hand, he aint calling. If hes got a better hand, your out. Yeah your giving him a free card by calling the flop, but only a pp can overtake you on the turn. Two broadway cards can not take the lead on the turn. Plus u learn more info with his turn play. He knows u havent defended much so if u call his flop he likely wont bluff you off your weak ace on the turn. So if he comes firing again on the turn u could even fold assuming he has you beat, and live to fight another day. If he checks the turn assume you have the best hand, and value play it accordingly.
XXEddie
QUOTE (dscoot @ Sunday, November 30th, 2008, 3:22 AM) *
I see 0 reason to shove the flop. If hes got a worse hand, he aint calling. If hes got a better hand, your out. Yeah your giving him a free card by calling the flop, but only a pp can overtake you on the turn. Two broadway cards can not take the lead on the turn. Plus u learn more info with his turn play. He knows u havent defended much so if u call his flop he likely wont bluff you off your weak ace on the turn. So if he comes firing again on the turn u could even fold assuming he has you beat, and live to fight another day. If he checks the turn assume you have the best hand, and value play it accordingly.



Um, no. Villain has been raising Hero's BB from the SB on other previous occasions, so you need to widen villain's range a lot. His range includes WAY more that Ax, PPs, Broadway cards. It is very possible that he has 8x, 5x, 76, a diamond draw.....

I probably just shovel this in preflop if he has been raising like this. But, on this flop, I shove too. You have already taken in 192k, which will separate you from the 2 other short stacks. You're hand is very vounerable against a range as wide as the villians too get greedy and try to double up with top pair and a 3 kicker.

edit-and we can easily be called here by worser hands, more specially flush draws and 76. Villain is getting almost excatly 2-1 on a call.
DonkSlayer
Couldn't we repop to 220 PF? I think calling is the worst option.
outsider13
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Monday, December 1st, 2008, 3:21 PM) *
Couldn't we repop to 220 PF? I think calling is the worst option.

What if he flats it? You're kinda left with an awkward bet in relation to the pot size.
shpaget
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Monday, December 1st, 2008, 2:21 PM) *
Couldn't we repop to 220 PF? I think calling is the worst option.


I tend to hate the pf call too - I'm torn between a raise to 250ish, or shoving....can you fold if he comes back over the top of your raise anyway?

I've been called by KQ/KJ/QJ here so often in my tourneys that I think shoving pf is fine, and much better than calling.
armen13
You mentioned that this player was tight. Raising your BB a couple of times doesn't make him a LAG player. It all comes down to his raising vs calling range. If he is opening more than 25% of hands and calling you with his top 13%, shoving is breakeven. That means he is raising 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,A2o+,KTo+,QJo and only calling 22+,A8s+,KJs+,ATo+,KJo+. You fare about 34% vs his calling a reshove range in that case.

There is another consideration: with 4 players left (one huge stack and 3 about even stacks) the ICM implications are very significant. This means you need much higher EV situations to risk getting knocked out (he doesn't have you covered but you would be on life support if you lost the hand). So for a shove to be profitable you need him to be raising a lot wider and calling tighter or some combination like that.

You played with this player so you are in the best position to estimate what he would raise with and what he would call with.

Flatting is difficult with 20bb's. You are not deep enough to have much fold equity mid way through the hand if you decide to go all in. You also have no idea what he has as you have not defined your hand. You will not be able to raise the flop without commiting yourself. Once in this spot you can call the flop for pot control and fold to any large bet on turn if he is not a tricky player.
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