Alright, hero has been playing LAG since getting a ton of chips, opening many pots, but playing decent post flop. Big hand people saw was I opened with 54s and flopped a straight and got all the chips.

Villain has been playing back at me at times and I haven't gotten a huge read on him b/c never shown down a pot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10+$1 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t4114)
Button (t21991)
SB (t1307)
BB (t6616)
UTG (t4671)
UTG+1 (t13095)
Hero (MP1) (t32107)
MP2 (t13985)
MP3 (t7356)

Hero's M: 30.58

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J
2 folds, Hero raises to t999, MP2 raises to t1598, 4 folds, BB calls t1198,Hero?

I hate being OOP against this villain. Do we call and evaluate or do we raise here?

Has he ever min-raised you before? I might just call and evaluate. This might depend on people's playing styles as well. Small ball vs. Homerun ball. I'd go small ball here, he's giving you a great price. I think if villain had less chips I might r/r. But I wouldn't want to be put in a spot if he r/r back.

Sometimes I wish I could follow my own advice because I think I would r/r and get it AIPF.

i think i call and play the flop cautious.

there is an argument for a shove here given that he has played back at you prior, that it would be for his tournament life, and the fact that you don't want the BB to tag along if you can avoid it.

The size of his raise bothers me. He is either effing with you, as many lag players will do in position, or he is holding a pretty big hand. This certainly looks like he wants the action.
That is why i would lean towards a call here and hope for a good flop.

also, i would lean towards a larger opening bet. i know most people go with the 2.5 BB preflop raise but it can make things very hard in hands like these.

His min raise looks so shitty, I actually might r/r him and plan to get it AIPF.

Raise>Fold>Call, I would never flat here with BB in as well. I would most likely re-raise and be willing to put them all-in, BB does worry me but doesn't have enough chips to scare me off. Folding would be better than calling I think, given our position.

a raise is a good play i agree with that one.

i can't however imagine how this could ever be a fold. With our chip stack 500 chips is a sneeze and we are getting at least 9 to 1 on the call. not to mention the implied odds if we hit a set here with two players in the pot. i think calling the raise and folding on a bad flop has much more value here then an outright fold.

I don't think I could ever fold here, even if I raised with garbage.
Also I think once you raise you're probably committed to calling a shove.

I figure 6:1. Maybe my monitor is upside down.

Bleugh tough spot.

I think I R/R to 4.5k and puke call a shove (Given reads/image/history)

I often flat here but you end up check/folding a load of flops.

QFT. JJ in particular needs a much bigger preflop raise. Like 4-5xBB I'd say.

I really don't like raising that much, especially when antes are in play. When you raise 4-5xbb you're basically showing your hand to the table. What do you do if someone shoves? More than likely you're beat. Yes, decisions might be a little more difficult if someone r/r when you raise 2.5xbb, but poker is never easy. Also it makes it difficult to steal the blinds because now you more or less have to open with that same amount every time. One of the keys to the later stages is being able to chip up by stealing blinds. When you raise to 2.5 or 3xbb you are losing less chips if you get played back at and have to fold.

Sorry if its a little off topic. But thought it could be discussed too.
I encountered this situation today too.
Blinds were 500/1000. My stack size was 22k with JJ in the SB.
It was blinds vs blinds. I made it 2.5k and got RR to 5.2k.
Do we ever call here ?
The board was under cards and i fired all 3 streets got re-raised all in on the river when an Ace came.

Do you have the HH? Seems like you should've gotten it in on the flop though the way it was played.

This is a matter of dispute in the poker books I have. Phil Gordon says raise the same amount every time; Dan Harrington says vary somewhat randomly but on average raise more with hands like TT or JJ; David Sklansky takes the issue head on and repeats with emphasis: "Different hands call for differently sized raises. Different hands call for differently sized raises." I find myself sympathetic to this perspective. Now, one caveat I'd throw out there is that online I'm playing $5 stakes generally, and a lot of players aren't sophisticated enough to figure "oh, he's raising a little more, he must have a medium-ish PP" (though in casinos, I play tourneys with $100 buyins, and they don't seem any more savvy than the $5 online players).

I find it hard to understand why you would raise less when antes are in play. The pot odds people get to call are better with antes, so if anything I would think you'd want to raise more (or just limp). Can you elaborate on this?

Yeah, it's hard to figure how he was even deep enough to fire on all three streets and then get raised all in! Must have been some smallish bets relative to the pot.

The BB could have a real hand, or just Ax, or nothing. Blind vs. blind, I think some players will take the SB raise as a pure steal and play back. Hard to say.

In online tournament, in later stages people are not that deepstacked, so it's really about pre-flop play. Meaning that it's more about stealing blinds and chipping up, picking on the smaller stacks. When blinds are small with no antes it's more about raising for value. Later on in tournies there are is a lot of action preflop with raises and re-raises, rarely is there ever any post flop play. In the later stages, you can't really wait for premium hands to raise with, you're stack dwindles every hand so you have to keep your stack going and win some races in order to go deep.

If I see that you raise 4-5xxBB and are playing tight, more than likely I'll stay away from you unless I have a big hand. I mean, if you raise 4-5xbb with 99 and you get r/r you're probably beat and now you've lost a nice portion of your stack. Raising 2.5x you can get away with alot more and possibly adding more to your stack, you just have to be able to pick your spots.

I'm sure someone here can probably explain it better, but that's about the gist of it.

Type "Go fuck yourself" in the chatbox and shove

loooooool

Okay, so you used "with antes" as shorthand for "it's getting later in the tourney and stacks are getting short", rather than talking about the effect of antes, all else equal--I gotcha. There's a range in there where I'd raise 2.5-3bbs with most hands, and start shoving middle pairs rather than go 4-5bbs.

More or less, when the antes hit most players have an average of about 20-25bbs. I mean, sure you're going to have some big stacks, but also some smaller stacks.

I think I make an iso reraise and call a shove

Will this change any thought, villain types in the chatbox, "don't do it"

That screams "I have AA or KK", right?

Without taking Mercury's advice, you've opened yourself up his shenanigens...

On a serious note, his chatbox antics make me think AK more than either of the other two hands.

meh, if i had KK+ id keep my mouth shout

I could search for it and repost here.
By the way i probably played it badly as i bet 4k for all 3 streets.
I figured he either had QQ KK or Ax.
I just felt that they might have been calling with air.
Not too sure about that.
Will repost with HH as the figures might not be accurate either.

With the 54s hand, was that raise from EP or MP? If so, he could raise you with AQ-A10 thinking he's probably ahead. Even if that raise was from a stealing seat, he may still think you're typically raising with garbage to steal if you've raised a lot.

Sure, he could have AA-QQ, but likewise, if he's raised back at you like this 3-4 times prior, it's highly doubtful he caught the nuts that many times.

IMO 3bet him large enough to pot commit him and see what he does next. I'd also be willing to put him in right now pre.

John Phan does this live all the time.

He doesn't want a call. 3bet.

PokerStars Game #21937943474: Tournament #119388112, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2008/11/11 0:18:45 ET
Table '119388112 159' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: nKirkWeTrust (20968 in chips)
Seat 2: kern_man (54413 in chips)
Seat 3: angkiki (21100 in chips)
Seat 4: InstantTurf (34711 in chips)
Seat 5: cacamou1234 (42108 in chips)
Seat 6: dcwardog (19355 in chips)
nKirkWeTrust: posts the ante 100
kern_man: posts the ante 100
angkiki: posts the ante 100
InstantTurf: posts the ante 100
cacamou1234: posts the ante 100
dcwardog: posts the ante 100
angkiki: posts small blind 500
InstantTurf: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to angkiki [Js Jh]
cacamou1234: folds
dcwardog: folds
nKirkWeTrust: folds
kern_man: folds
angkiki: raises 2000 to 3000
InstantTurf: raises 2000 to 5000
angkiki: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [7d 5s 5c]
angkiki: bets 4000
InstantTurf: calls 4000
*** TURN *** [7d 5s 5c] [8s]
angkiki: bets 4000
InstantTurf: calls 4000
*** RIVER *** [7d 5s 5c 8s] [Ad]
angkiki: bets 4000
InstantTurf: raises 4000 to 8000
angkiki: folds
Uncalled bet (4000) returned to InstantTurf
InstantTurf collected 34600 from pot
InstantTurf: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 34600 | Rake 0
Board [7d 5s 5c 8s Ad]
Seat 1: nKirkWeTrust folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: kern_man (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: angkiki (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: InstantTurf (big blind) collected (34600)
Seat 5: cacamou1234 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: dcwardog folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Here is the HH fellas.

-Shove pre
-Bet 7.5k on that flop
-You should shoving by the turn if you're not already all in
-River is just nmasdiocmasd but you've committed all of your stack, you can't really shove.
-4k on each street is just bad

You should convert your HH--makes it a lot easier to follow (and it's against the rules here not to do so, though obviously that's only loosely enforced):

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00+$0.20 Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 100 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



CO (t20968)
Button (t54413)
Hero (SB) (t21100)
BB (t34711)
UTG (t42108)
MP (t19355)

Hero's M: 10.05

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
4 folds, Hero raises to t3000, BB raises to t5000, Hero calls t2000

Flop: (t10600) 7, 5, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets t4000, BB calls t4000

Turn: (t18600) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t4000, BB calls t4000

River: (t26600) A (2 players)
Hero bets t4000, BB raises to t8000, Hero folds

Total pot: t34600

So: preflop is okay, though it wouldn't have been crazy to shove after the reraise. But this line is fine too, if that's how you want to play it preflop. It sort of gets a little worse and worse with each street though.

Flop bet is too small. You almost definitely need to shove. Or, if you have some amazing read that villain has QQ/KK/AA, why are you betting anything at all? You could have called the reraise preflop, hoped to flop a set, then check-folded when you didn't. I think that's way too tight, but if you have that great a read, it makes more sense than this middle way where you pot commit yourself without putting any pressure on.

As played, you definitely have to shove the turn. As played, here comes the A on the river. You can't, can't can't bet half your remaining stack as a less than 1/6 pot bet, then fold to the minraise. You should never let yourself get into a position like that, but if you somehow wake up in a position where you have sleepwalked your way to that point, I think you have to call the river raise with your jacks. You've got ten to one pot odds (wow!) with a pocket pair dealing with only one overcard (though it's a worrisome overcard to be sure). If you call and win, you've vaulted into second place (or very close). If you call and lose, of course, you're out; but if you fold you've left yourself with an effective M of just over 1. You're like that Black Knight in the Holy Grail, lying there with no arms and legs.

So again, if you somehow get into that situation on the river where you weren't sure if you were beat but the A just absolutely convinces you you have no chance, at the very least don't make that last bet, and just check-fold. But again, it's hard to even imagine being in that situation, because you should have taken a different route long before that--on the flop, either shove or check-fold if you're sure you're beat.

heh, like the black knight analogy

Thanks, was hoping people would get a chuckle out of that

In a 2.20, there is no way you can't shove this PF. JJ+ is D nuttzzzzz pre in these tournys (though I'm not sure if it is a 180)

I guess i really did play it badly.
But i couldn't call the river could i ?
Its not a 180 its a tourney.
Anyway i wouldn't even shove QQ prf here not to mention JJ.
Also should we ever EVER think of folding JJ here OOP to a 3bet ?

I'd probably call that river bet getting those odds, but then again I would have been in on the turn at the latest. Please bet more! Not only to protect your hands, but to get more value.

Please be willing to shove QQ. You can make a case to fold JJ to a nit if you have a read. That's never a bad play. In the case of the OP's hand, it's such a small 3bet that I'd probably flat with my stack and hope for a low flop.

Well, your going to get the answer it is all player dependent, but a lot of these players at this level overplay weak aces and low PPs.

If you ever come in a situation like this again, with QQ and don't shove, that is a horrible move.

Anyways as for the play of the hand, you should bet more on the flop and get it in on the turn if you don't get it in PF. With 20bbs PF, you practically have your stack in the middle by the turn, get it in! And then throw your mouse when you realize he is an idiot and 3bet with A7soootttteeeddd