Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $69 + $6 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t2860)
MP3 (t3332)
CO (t3060)
Button (t1971)
SB (t3290)
BB (t3080)
UTG (t2970)
UTG+1 (t3616)
Hero (MP1) (t2821)

Hero's M: 94.03

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q , Q
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t70, Hero raises to t200, 6 folds, UTG+1 raises to t630, Hero calls t430

Flop: (t1290) 3 , 5 , 9 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t1290, [color=#CC3333] hero???

This is the 10th hand of the tournament, the only other hand I saw villain play he raised preflop, had 3 callers and they all folded to his pot sized bet. Is folding to the 4 bet pre flop too weak?

Either this villain is testosterone fueled and wins by insisting he must be the aggressor on every street, or he has AA-KK. Without any reads, you have to take a guess: either he has you beat or he doesn't.

But you have to decide before you call the 4bet whether you're going to commit to the hand (given a safe flop). To call the additional 430 pre without a complete commitment to the hand is spew. If you can't commit to putting in all your chips once villain makes it 630, then fold.

Keep in mind: Few players will 4bet and then check the flop unless it looks dangerous. This villain probably bets the flop once you call. You need to know before you call the 430 if you can play back when villain leads the flop.

And the only hands you really have to fear preflop are AA or KK.

He hit the raise pot button! I don't think that somebody would raise more than 60 with AA or KK. As dumb as that sounds, that would be my reasoning to get it all in.

Disclaimer: I go broke with QQ more than I probably should

Flatting pre-flop is horrible. What are we doing, set-mining? =P

I'm going broke with QQ Pre-flop, or I'm folding it.. And I'm pretty much never folding it. Unless it's Beth Shak and she shoves her money in the middle and sprints up and down the rail dancing and high fiving her husband and cheering section.

on a side note.. if he really does have AA/KK.. what is he doing potting the flop? It takes all potential plays away from you and only allows you to essentially call off all your money. If he did have AA/KK, him betting half your stack on the flop is a pretty bad play, because even if he puts you on a lower PP than his monster, he'd have to figure the money would go in either way, and he's even more likely to get it if he lets you be the aggressor. Players in this much of a hurry to get a hand over with are usually holding a JJ/TT type hand and desperately trying to 'get their money in ahead'. If he's playing Aces or Kings that strong at all instances, then wow. Yay for him. I'm not folding Queens to that strong a line, tho. especially on that flop. I'm going to see TT/JJ/KK here a lot. That's way too hard a line for AK and (usually) AA.

You might wanna toss this hand over in the New Challenge / Old Challenge thread.. There's enough guys there that play that high to give you the solid advice and will forgive you for posting a tourney question in a cash game thread.

Considering his 3.5xbb initial raise i'm almost certain he does not have AA. I'm putting him on JJ-KK, AK and the outside chance of TT with the most likely holding being AK. I flat pre-flop because this early and 100bb+ deep I don't want to flip (this may be a leak on my part) So I'm waiting for the safe flop and getting it in. I agree the flop betting looks like JJ/TT, just curious what anyone else thought. Thanks for the Challenge thread advice, I might do that tomorrow morning when I'm actually awake haha.

This is just the kind of scenario I had in mind when I posted the thread about having an overpair that could be dominated by a better overpair, but you just don't know. These kinds of hands drive me crazy, so I won't pretend to have the right answer for you. I'd have a hard time folding, but then I don't play at that level either.

Sorry, I guess I should have edited my post. I agree once I call the 4bet i'm commited providing a safe flop. My question is more the preflop play, considering how deep stacked I am should I be less aggressive with queens? 3bet and fold to the 4bet?? or just flat the initial raise, pot the flop bet and then reevaluate if he plays back?

I don't consider myself to be a great poker player but I feel we have 2 options, fold on flop or re-raise all in.
I'm a knit and I fold on flop. If he has AA or KK (this is very likely) we are doomed. The only other hand he could possibly make this play with is AK and if we re-raise all in he'll call like 100% of the time. He will then take it away 25% of the time.

As I say, this is just my opinion obv.

What does 4 bet and 3 bet mean?
What does FWIW mean?
What does QFT mean?

Told you I'm a n00b.

3-bet = re-raise
4-bet = re-re-raise
FWIW = For what its worth
QFT = Quoted for truth

As for the hand. Ship it in on the flop, or preflop. This is JJ more than its KK and if it is KK, ah well.

Thanks for that, appreciate it.

ugh.. Yeah it's a tricky spot.. It's not like you are going to have a read on your opponents' soul at 10/20 blinds.

You'd hate to go broke at 10/20 running Queens into somthing worse, but on the same token this is the stage of the tournament the dead money is bending over backwards to give their money away. It's easy to stack off with QQ in, say, a $4.40 becuase you can get called by the most ridiculous hands. At the $69 level the range you get called with PF narrows considerably (against unknowns). Hell, post it in Challenge: I want a second opinion, too.

hahaha

I think the fact he bet pot makes his range slightly wider than if he hadn't so I probably get it in. Could have TT (maybe)/JJ/QQ/KK/AA/going nutso with AK

Shovel preflop to save yourself the tough decision

I probably get it all-in before the flop, don't like flatting the queens here. As played definitely get it in on the flop because either villian way overbets his big hands or you have him beat.

I think if we shove pre we're most likely going to lose the hands that we beat(TT,JJ,AK) and we're only getting called by better. I usually tend to flat pre in these spots and then go broke on a safe flop because then we're getting in vs TT+ and we pick up the chips from his cbet with AK. Given the way he bet this hand Im guessing it's AK or TT, id be surprised to see KK+

No A, no K on the flop. What more could you ask for? Shove and hope he doesn't have AA/KK

Alright, this is coming from the person who almost never folds QQ PF or on a rag flop, but why are we sooo eager to get our money in the pot PF this early in the tourny?

I agree that villains range is wider than just AA or KK, but do we really want to flip for the tourny when he flips over AKss? I think we see that hand here more often that JJ or the same hand.

The structure is deep for FT. Really, you could get away from this once he makes it 630 and still have plenty of room... UNLESS this villain is the type to get a big stack, establish an aggressive image, and then throw his weight around, in which case you need to trap him and/or look for a spot to double through him ASAP because such a villain won't give you much of a chance to build a stack otherwise.

But really, it goes back to the OP citing that this villain only played one other hand, where he pot bet a multiway flop and took it down. Looks more to me like a TAG villain with emphasis on the A that when he catches his hand, he 1) wants to isolate and 2) is ready to commit his stack.

Whether or not we want to get it in as well depends on how much we believe we need to double up ASAP, and if we think villain's range leaves us with an edge. Again, that's a decision we need to make once we get 4bet.

It's too bad we were in MP1 and we needed to 3bet to isolate here, because with the stacks this deep and the $18K's structure, I wouldn't have minded flatting and seeing a flop if we were assured of having position. The structure works great for smallball, and flatting would have disguised QQ well.