The blinds are loose and passive

5/10 (8 handed)

Preflop: I get delt 3 3 on the Button.
Everyone folds to me, I call, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (3sb) Q 7 4 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (2.5BB) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, I bet, SB calls.

River: (4.5BB) A (2 players)
SB checks, I check.

Looks fine
That flop clearly helped no one, but they don't know that it didn't help you
It's basically similar to if you had flopped 2nd pair, right? Keep betting til someone challenges you and check the end

If SB's WtSD% is below normal, I'd fire that last bullet.


No steal raise preflop? I know it's loose/passive and they probably call, but it helps sell your hand...

im not sure about the turn bet...

Shouldn't you be raising here pre-flop? Nothing else to comment on except that... :wink:

Preflop and turn are the discussion...so, discuss!

Why shouldn't I bet the turn?
What does raising prflop accomplish?
WHy should I bet the turn?
What does limping preflop accomplish?

You got to see a flop for cheap...whoop-de-freaking-do

Because the players in question will likely give me a free showdown if I check the turn.



It doesn't give me a chance to win uncontested. Do you see why?



testing the waters is one of my last concern. I tested the waters on the flop.



That should be important. Would you rather see the flop for 2sb than one...having the same postflop results?

ok a few things...

i think 33 is a limp here since he says the blinds are loose, its probably a fold otherwise, but id have to think about that. raising is horrible.

the turn is interesting. is seems like you are probably betting to force flush and straight draws to pay, but if you check you might get a free showdown. on that note, a free showdown really accomplishes nothing.

i suppose you played it right.
the river check is standard.

I don't like limping with 33 on the button with no callers behind you.

Raise and see if they fold. If they raise back then 3-bet no?

I like the turn bet and would rather see a bet on the river but I understand checking. Is this a check call situation or check fold on the river?

If I was bet into on the river, I would fold without a second thought.

My thought was all about the pre-flop limp. Here are the possibilities if you raise with some guesses about chances.

You take the blinds: 25%
You get heads up against the big blind: 50%
You get heads up against the small blind: 5%
You get raised: 10%
Both call: 10%

The raise protects a hand that is a favorite against most hands heads-up but becomes a dog vs. two players. They may not know that, but by raising you make them even more unsure about what you might hold and increase your fold equity on later rounds.

Given the chances above (you have a better sense), I say you are in good shape 75% of the time and in tough shape 25% of the time. However, you have the advantage of position and the likelihood that it will be checked to you on the flop.

In addition, you have gained information about the relative strengths of the blinds while giving little away about your hand and while creating uncertainty in their minds. You could be on a blind steal or you could have a hand. They can't tell.

With the limp, it's almost certain that you have two callers or a raiser. A hand with which you would win more than half the time if you raise becomes a dog, especially if you are raised. You will have to call the raise to see a flop and when it doesn't hit, you'll have to fold. Just because it didn't happen in this hand doesn't mean it's not a possibility in a situation like this.

we might need to discuss it, but i think its important that everyone realizes how bad raising here is.

Raising is only bad if there is a high probability that the blinds will both call. That may be the case here. I mean, there is loose and then there is LOOSE. I'm not sure where this game falls. Maybe wrto can elucidate.

Please discuss.

You do not know that they are going to call. Being loose passive doesnt necessarily mean that they will call your button raise with anything, just a wider array of hands.

I have much to learn, and am not trying to sound argumentative (especially if I am way off on a lot of my comments). Please explain some of your a little more please, so I can try to see the other side of the coon :wink:

the blinds are loose and passive
they care going to call a raise.

you like having 4 opponents in a pot with 3-3?

My take is that if they will both call the raise 40-50% of the time raising is a bad move. Of course, they would need to be VERY loose. Not all loose/passive players will call a raise in the blinds that often.

wrto-would they both have called a pre-flop raise around 50% of the time?

the blinds are loose and passive
they care going to call a raise.

you like having 4 opponents in a pot with 3-3?[/quote]

No, but 2 wouldn't be a disaster. If you aren't going to raise here with them though, why bother even playing them here? Did I not just read in another post where raising with KJ offsuit UTG is a good play, but raising with a small pocket pair from the button isn't? :wink:

Preflop:

Raising accomplishes nothing. IMO, it should go: limping > folding > raising.

I will take the blinds here about 0% of the time because they are loose. Also, loose players don't understand that a raise means a good hand so they are going to call down with any peice of the board. I have 0% fold equity. Obviously, raising accomplishes nothing. I don't want to fold because I am in position against weak opponents with what is likely to be the best hand. So, I limp. Another benefit of limping is that noone has control of the pot, if one of the loose/passive players catch anything on the flop they are more likely to bet it instead of checking to the preflop raiser. I get a better feel of where I am postflop by limping preflop. I would also limp with hands like A7o and K7s against very loose blinds.

Turn:

I bet because I want to charge hands I have beat. Flush draws and straight draws are out there. But not only that, many poor players peel on the flop with any two cards. I don't want to check the turn and give a free card to two overs that are just peeling on the flop.

Excellent explanation. Now I see where you are coming from. I don't entirely agree with you thoughts on what the blinds are going to do pre-flop to a raise, but now that I see WHY you would do something, it makes sense. :wink:

Wow - 0%. There's nothing like absolute certainty to make one feel warm and fuzzy inside. However, if it's anything close to that then raising pre-flop is the worst play. At that point, I view calling and folding a relative equals, with calling slightly on top because of the position advantage.

I'd love to find a 5/10 table this loose/passive.

[quote="wrto4556"]Preflop and turn are the discussion...so, discuss!

Why shouldn't I bet the turn?-loose players probably hit some of this, and since they're passive they won't raise w/o a monster

What does raising prflop accomplish?-nnothing, muck it

WHy should I bet the turn?- to try to get them to fold. I know My indignant ass would've fired at it

What does limping preflop accomplish?-nothing, muck it


I can't believe that you of all people Open Donked on the button here, momentary lapse of reason? You know that you should've just sent it into the muck

limping > folding > raising

Kdawg, this is straight out of HEPFAP. Read my explination.

I totally agree with wrto on this. It is a definate limp in this spot. One other thought is that raising is going to put 6SB'S in the pot vs 3SB'S. Though it's not alot, it does give the blinds better odds to call down with. Most will muck in small pot rather than draw out.

Let's look at it another way. Since you raised and represented a strong hand, but one of the blinds does catch a piece, like a Q with week kicker in this case or middle pair, he might decide to check call on down costing you more bets. If the BB bets out here on the flop it's an easy laydown and your not out much.

Good point. They are making a huge fundamental error chasing in this small of a pot.

I agree that raising here against loose-passives is bad. I'm not sure whether I agree with limping - your hand is likely the best hand preflop, but is it likely to be the best hand postflop, or at showdown. You might have a little more than 33% equity, but if so it's not much more, and unless you flop the set, you're not going to know where you stand.



I don't know - this argument only works if you have the best hand here more often than you don't. On the flop, he's most likely calling you with either a pair, a flush draw, or maybe a gutshot. But the only gutshots at the flop are 85, 86, 63, and 53. The last two are unlikely because you have two of the threes, and the first two, if he had them, he paired on the turn. So most likely by the turn, you're up against either a flush draw or a pair. And I'm guessing a pair is more likely than the flush draw. (Not to mention that, if he's got a draw, he's got plenty of outs, but if he's got a pair, you only have two outs.) So I think I'd take the free card.

Sure I will. Noone has control over the pot and I have goot postflop skills. 8)



Or I could not give free cards. People make lots of loose calls on the flop only to fold the turn UI. Why would I give that player, who is bound to have 2 overs, a free look at the river?

You're going to win the pot with a bet more often than you're going to come from behind by winning by making a set.

He's more likely to fold to a bet than you are likely to make a set. It rhymes, and it's true. There's the EV advantage in betting here.

Ice

I did, but its a tiny pot. I just don't see much value here. I know that there are others who question this one too :wink:

Those others are wrong. :wink:

I can guarantee he doesn't have two overs - even loose-passives raise with AK preflop.8)

He might have taken a card off on the flop with KJ, KT, JT, AT, etc. - but I just think it's more likely that he's got a pair (you had two opponents initially, so if either of them had a pair, he would likely still be in here).

I think this hand is going to be hard to get value out of overall postflop if you miss the set, so I'm leaning towards folding preflop. Your advantage on the flop basically boils down to: if you miss, you can fold to a bet and bet if it's checked to you, right? But now, you've invested two small bets if a caller has a pair and will call down, but didn't bet it; and you're going to be investing another bet on the turn.

Also, if you miss the flop, you'll have a hard time getting your opponents to make a mistake if they check to you. They might make a mistake by calling, if they have just high cards. But if they have even a gutshot with two cards higher than 3, they've got 10 outs, and their call would actually be correct.

I think a hand like 55 or 66 would be a lot better for limping here, because now many flops are less likely to hurt you, because they're more likely to contain an undercard to your pair.

Why in the world would you raise here? Even if you get it heads up, you're a very slight favorite to almost any hand, and when the flop comes 9 times out of 10 you're not going to know where you're at. You can't put BB on a hand b/c he was the BB and loose. If he checks to you, you bet, and he calls then what? Is he calling down with a pair? Is he drawing? You would have no idea. Raising loose/passive players with a pair of 3s I think is bad. You're betting on a pair of threes. Assuming both blinds call, you're ever farther behind. What do you do if one bets into you? Raise him and get into a pissing contest with a pair of 3s? No thanks. WRTO played it fine. Folding with so few people in the pot, nothing invested, and probably having no idea where you are after the flop seems like a better idea to me though.