Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Flopped Second Nuts Vs Aggressive Player
FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
TrueFX
$1 / $2 at the Venetian.

I had been playing at the same table for about 4 hours and the big stack at the table has been very aggressive. He has not shown down many hands and bets heavy on every street. I think I have seen his hand twice and both time he had the goods. The aggressive player had run his stack up around $1,000 with just two showdowns. My stack was right around $700.

I am sitting in early position with kc.gif qc.gif and limp in knowing that the aggressive player will raise the pot.

Aggressive player hits it for $12 and the button calls. Blinds fold, I call, and we are 3 to the flop.

Flop : ks.gif qs.gif qh.gif

I check in the hopes that the aggressive player or the button will bet.

Aggressive player bets $75, Button folds, and I call. I didn't raise because he has 3 bet me and everyone else at the table in just about every other hand that he plays.

Turn : 3c.gif

I check, and he checks!!!

River 5h.gif

I bet $200, he folds as.gif 10s.gif face up telling me how lucky I was that he didn't bust me.

Should I have led into him on the flop? Check Raised? I was trying to let him hang himself and decided that I was going to check raise on the turn. Do you normally lead into an aggressive player? Check raise the flop?

How could I have extracted more money from him not knowing he was on 2 big draws?

Thanks
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (TrueFX @ Monday, September 29th, 2008, 7:18 AM) *
$1 / $2 at the Venetian.

I had been playing at the same table for about 4 hours and the big stack at the table has been very aggressive. He has not shown down many hands and bets heavy on every street. I think I have seen his hand twice and both time he had the goods. The aggressive player had run his stack up around $1,000 with just two showdowns. My stack was right around $700.

I am sitting in early position with kc.gif qc.gif and limp in knowing that the aggressive player will raise the pot.

Aggressive player hits it for $12 and the button calls. Blinds fold, I call, and we are 3 to the flop.

Flop : ks.gif qs.gif qh.gif

I check in the hopes that the aggressive player or the button will bet.

Aggressive player bets $75, Button folds, and I call. I didn't raise because he has 3 bet me and everyone else at the table in just about every other hand that he plays.

Turn : 3c.gif

I check, and he checks!!!

River 5h.gif

I bet $200, he folds as.gif 10s.gif face up telling me how lucky I was that he didn't bust me.

Should I have led into him on the flop?
No, I don't think leading that gigantic flop into an aggressor OOP makes us much $ over time.

Check Raised? I was trying to let him hang himself and decided that I was going to check raise on the turn.
Raising the flop isn't a bad idea. I think if you raise that flop bet and bet the turn, you make a lot more $ -- a TON more $ on this hand in particular. And if we catch him with a Q, we're going to fry him. If he has nothing, he's not paying us off anyway. Check-raising isn't a bad play here against an aggressor who is sitting on a big stack.


Do you normally lead into an aggressive player?
Check raise the flop?
Depending on his aggression level, I hardly ever lead my strong hands into an aggressive player. Check raising the flop will signal to him that you have a Q, but since he was drawing very strong, he would have called almost any bet.

How could I have extracted more money from him not knowing he was on 2 big draws?
Him only showing down two hands is a problem, because you can't define a range for him. He could be smoking a passive table with air 90% of the time.

I think in summary, I would say we're not going to win much money if we don't put much money in pots. We can't trap everyone.

Thanks
DonkSlayer
I think you played it fine. I'm not sure about a flop c/r, I understand MtDes's point about getting money into the pot, but it's results-oriented to say he had As10s so he would've called.

It would be bad to lead on this flop unless the aggro player was raising donkbets a lot too so I like your check.

Turn check check is fine.

River, were you trying to overbet as if you were weak? I might've bet $100 instead, hoping to get raised, and maybe get a call from a K. The turn and river very likely didn't improve his holdings so we're less likely to get a hero call from him when we bet the pot, IMO.
quadaces
As played on the flop, and knowing that he is super agro, you have to lead that turn for a small amount hoping to show a little weakness and hope that he raises so you can reraise.

I also don't understand your reasoning for just calling the flop because you are afraid of getting 3 bet. You want to get 3 bet in that spot because you can shove and there is no way he is folding.
TrueFX
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Monday, September 29th, 2008, 8:48 AM) *
I think you played it fine. I'm not sure about a flop c/r, I understand MtDes's point about getting money into the pot, but it's results-oriented to say he had As10s so he would've called.

It would be bad to lead on this flop unless the aggro player was raising donkbets a lot too so I like your check.

Turn check check is fine.

River, were you trying to overbet as if you were weak? I might've bet $100 instead, hoping to get raised, and maybe get a call from a K. The turn and river very likely didn't improve his holdings so we're less likely to get a hero call from him when we bet the pot, IMO.


You're right, river bet was too big for a marginal hand to call.

I hadn't seen enough of his hands to realise he had probably been betting and raising on the come to know that I could have check raised the flop to get him to continue.

Thanks for the analysis gentlemen.
TrueAce13
Yeah, I don't see how we don't put money into the pot OOP. As you stated, he is a very aggro villain, he is going to raise a wide range of hands b/c of his position.

Now how played, what do we think about firing on the turn? Does this show too much strength or could it be seen as a bluff?
DonkSlayer
QUOTE (quadaces @ Monday, September 29th, 2008, 12:13 PM) *
As played on the flop, and knowing that he is super agro, you have to lead that turn for a small amount hoping to show a little weakness and hope that he raises so you can reraise.

I also don't understand your reasoning for just calling the flop because you are afraid of getting 3 bet. You want to get 3 bet in that spot because you can shove and there is no way he is folding.


I just caught that line. Hmm. I still think calling the flop is a better play but I don't get his reasoning either.
DonkSlayer
QUOTE (TrueAce13 @ Monday, September 29th, 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Yeah, I don't see how we don't put money into the pot OOP. As you stated, he is a very aggro villain, he is going to raise a wide range of hands b/c of his position.

Now how played, what do we think about firing on the turn? Does this show too much strength or could it be seen as a bluff?


Yeah but we also give him the opportunity to fold if we lead, and with the board paired already I think he's more likely to fold raggy hands behind our bet instead of choosing to raise, but he'll probably fire with most of those hands if we just check.

I don't think a medium-sized lead on the turn is bad at all, I just want the aggro player to see all 5 cards for his hand before I pump the pot. The lead could be read as anything from big strength to a semi-bluff, leaning toward semi-bluff hoping to make my draw on the river.
SGFULTON83
Call the flop as played and lead the turn about 2/3 pot and the same on the river is how I play it. Especially against an aggro when you hold that strong of a hand you want to put money in the pot on every street because the aggro is likely to re-raise you and that equals extra $. Plus we don't want it to go check-check on the turn.
pokerinc
if you donked the turn for the same amount he bet the flop for it would get a call and possibly a spaz raise. looks like a weak 'i have a small piece/draw let's do the turn cheap' bet.
SCS
If villain 3 bets flop c/r's a lot, I don't know why you wouldn't raise.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2012 Invision Power Services, Inc.