PokerStars Game #20622561074: Tournament #109328034, $1.00+$0.10 Razz Limit - Level V (150/300) - 2008/09/23 0:02:34 ET
Table '109328034 15' 8-max
Seat 1: mr.p.mac (2765 in chips)
Seat 2: CharginWapos (1410 in chips)
Seat 3: JinkyMcNuts (8320 in chips)
Seat 4: sabreswin76 (3405 in chips)
Seat 5: Diobird (1525 in chips)
Seat 6: mortalplague (4795 in chips)
Seat 7: Moxie0912 (2595 in chips)
Seat 8: lionhead22 (1960 in chips)
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2h 9d 5d]
Dealt to CharginWapos [Kc]
Dealt to JinkyMcNuts [6c]
Dealt to sabreswin76 [2d]
Dealt to Diobird [9h]
Dealt to mortalplague [Qc]
Dealt to Moxie0912 [5c]
Dealt to lionhead22 [Th]
CharginWapos: brings in for 45
JinkyMcNuts: folds
sabreswin76: calls 45
Diobird: folds
mortalplague: folds
Moxie0912: folds
lionhead22: calls 45
mr.p.mac: calls 45
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2h 9d 5d] [2c]
Dealt to CharginWapos [Kc] [7c]
Dealt to sabreswin76 [2d] [Js]
Dealt to lionhead22 [Th] [6h]
mr.p.mac: checks
CharginWapos: checks
sabreswin76: checks
lionhead22: bets 150
mr.p.mac: raises 150 to 300
CharginWapos: folds
sabreswin76: folds
lionhead22 thinks for like 40 seconds
lionhead22: calls 150
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2h 9d 5d 2c] [9s]
Dealt to lionhead22 [Th 6h] [4c]
mr.p.mac: insta-bets 300
he thinks for 20 seconds again
lionhead22: calls 300
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2h 9d 5d 2c 9s] [7s]
Dealt to lionhead22 [Th 6h 4c] [Ks]
mr.p.mac: insta-bets 300
lionhead22: calls 300
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2h 9d 5d 2c 9s 7s] [8h]
mr.p.mac: insta-bets 300
lionhead22: folds
Uncalled bet (300) returned to mr.p.mac
mr.p.mac collected 2100 from pot
_____________________________________________________

Man, can you imagine how much of an idiot I would have looked/felt if he had called? Luckily he didn't hit his 6 low, LOL.

Does anyone here ever check raise in Razz? This is the first time I've done it. I bet before I even saw what my cards were! This hand was idiotic, but to be fair, I did have a tight table image at the time. Chances are though, he wasn't paying any attention since this was early in a 1.1 tournament. (I took 10th place, by the way.)

I don't like the check raise, either way the K and the J are folding, but the Ten would probably fold to a lead, you just committed him. Take it down early, you have a really crappy hand but a really awesome board. Don't get fancy.

Oh, Razz is a tough game to check raise because the best board leads and a check looks kind of suspicious. Your cards would shuffle if he called, so he wouldn't know precisely when you caguth bet, just that at some point, you had.

Hey man, thanks for the helpful response. Thought I posted this earlier. A couple more Razz hands. I'm wondering: could I have gotten out of them earlier?

This is the beginning of a $1 Razz tournament, and the play has been terrible. People regularly calling with face cards in their hands. The only players regularly folding hands are me and any two word.

wallman456 is one of the average bad players. I've seen him show down several hands with pairs in his third street. Tzachee, on the other hand, is a absolute donkey deluxe! I've been astounded repeatedly as he plays every hand, raises with two kings face-up on fourth street, and even calls river bets with three pairs (!!) in his hand.

PokerStars Game #20856896063: Tournament #110918286, $1.00+$0.10 Razz Limit - Level I (25/50) - 2008/10/01 22:57:16 ET
Table '110918286 8' 8-max
Seat 1: canam999 (3375 in chips)
Seat 2: any two word (2235 in chips)
Seat 3: mr.p.mac (2250 in chips)
Seat 4: tzachee (1220 in chips)
Seat 5: db2010 (2930 in chips)
Seat 6: EGYPT EYE (2200 in chips)
Seat 7: borntobewild (3340 in chips)
Seat 8: wallman456 (2450 in chips)
canam999: posts the ante 5
any two word: posts the ante 5
mr.p.mac: posts the ante 5
tzachee: posts the ante 5
db2010: posts the ante 5
EGYPT EYE: posts the ante 5
borntobewild: posts the ante 5
wallman456: posts the ante 5
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to canam999 [Td]
Dealt to any two word [8d]
Dealt to mr.p.mac [4h Ac 3d]
Dealt to tzachee [Kh]
Dealt to db2010 [7c]
Dealt to EGYPT EYE [Th]
Dealt to borntobewild [Kd]
Dealt to wallman456 [4c]
tzachee: brings in for 10
db2010: folds
EGYPT EYE: folds
borntobewild: calls 10
wallman456: raises 15 to 25
canam999: folds
any two word: folds
mr.p.mac: raises 25 to 50
tzachee: calls 40
borntobewild: calls 40
wallman456: raises 25 to 75
mr.p.mac: raises 25 to 100
Betting is capped
tzachee: calls 50
borntobewild: calls 50
wallman456: calls 25
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [4h Ac 3d] [5s]
Dealt to tzachee [Kh] [Qh]
Dealt to borntobewild [Kd] [3h]
Dealt to wallman456 [4c] [2h]
wallman456: bets 25
mr.p.mac: raises 25 to 50
tzachee: calls 50
borntobewild: calls 50
wallman456: calls 25
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [4h Ac 3d 5s] [Ad]
Dealt to tzachee [Kh Qh] [5d]
Dealt to borntobewild [Kd 3h] [Js]
Dealt to wallman456 [4c 2h] [As]
wallman456: bets 50
mr.p.mac: calls 50
tzachee: calls 50
borntobewild: folds
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [4h Ac 3d 5s Ad] [9h]
Dealt to tzachee [Kh Qh 5d] [4d]
Dealt to wallman456 [4c 2h As] [Jd]
mr.p.mac: checks
tzachee: checks
wallman456: bets 50
mr.p.mac: calls 50
tzachee: calls 50
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [4h Ac 3d 5s Ad 9h] [Qc]
mr.p.mac: checks
tzachee: checks
wallman456: bets 50
mr.p.mac: folds
tzachee: calls 50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wallman456: shows [7d 3c 4c 2h As Jd 2s] (Lo: 7,4,3,2,A)
tzachee: mucks hand
wallman456 collected 1040 from pot

Another one:

PokerStars Game #20857232018: Tournament #110918286, $1.00+$0.10 Razz Limit - Level II (50/100) - 2008/10/01 23:12:44 ET
Table '110918286 8' 8-max
Seat 1: canam999 (3275 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: any two word (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: mr.p.mac (1670 in chips)
Seat 5: db2010 (2440 in chips)
Seat 6: EGYPT EYE (730 in chips)
Seat 7: borntobewild (3125 in chips)
Seat 8: wallman456 (4715 in chips)
canam999: posts the ante 5
any two word: posts the ante 5
mr.p.mac: posts the ante 5
db2010: posts the ante 5
EGYPT EYE: posts the ante 5
borntobewild: posts the ante 5
wallman456: posts the ante 5
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to canam999 [7d]
Dealt to any two word [Jh]
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2s 8d 7s]
Dealt to db2010 [4h]
Dealt to EGYPT EYE [3c]
Dealt to borntobewild [9h]
Dealt to wallman456 [Jd]
any two word: brings in for 15
mr.p.mac: calls 15
db2010: folds
EGYPT EYE: folds
borntobewild: calls 15
wallman456: folds
canam999: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to any two word [Jh] [2c]
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2s 8d 7s] [Js]
Dealt to borntobewild [9h] [3d]
borntobewild: bets 50
any two word: folds
EGYPT EYE said, "alot sucing off poker stars"
mr.p.mac: calls 50
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2s 8d 7s Js] [4s]
Dealt to borntobewild [9h 3d] [Qd]
mr.p.mac: bets 100
borntobewild: calls 100
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2s 8d 7s Js 4s] [4d]
Dealt to borntobewild [9h 3d Qd] [8h]
borntobewild: bets 100
mr.p.mac: calls 100
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to mr.p.mac [2s 8d 7s Js 4s 4d] [2d]
borntobewild: checks
mr.p.mac: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mr.p.mac: shows [2s 8d 7s Js 4s 4d 2d] (Lo: J,8,7,4,2)
borntobewild: shows [Qc Ac 9h 3d Qd 8h 5d] (Lo: 9,8,5,3,A)
borntobewild collected 580 from pot

Was it a good call on 6th street? I don't really understand razz odds against bad players (this one was seeing fourth street regularly with face cards). I'm working on a bad 8 low here, which would beat his 9 low but probably not any 8 low.

Hand 1 I'm not raising on 4th. He may be an average bad player, but he did raise and reraise on 3rd so I'm guessing he's on 3 low cards. When the 2 falls on 4th you're now behind what he's showing. I'd probably just call 4th and hope to pull ahead on 5th.

Hand 2 I'm definitely folding on 6th. You're way behind now, with a J low against the 9 that he's showing. At that point you need to hit a 9 or lower, without pairing, while hoping he doesn't improve. If the competition is really as bad as you say it is, then you don't need to chase hands like this to win.

Hand 1: If your not raising 4th then don't play razz, 1) all the 2's are still live so he could have easily paired, 2) you will have the best draw a high % of the time against even some of the tightest Razz players, and 3) Even against A234 your not in horrible shape and you want extra money in against the donks drawing at a K low.

Hand 2: You should not fold you are getting almost 5 to 1 on the call, your never going to be a 5 to 1 underdog against a made 9 and he could be just representing a made 9 (which he was).

Hand #2: You SHOULD be folding. You are well behind his 9, and are also well behind his 8 draw no matter how you cut it. That in itself puts you in a bad way. The only way you can call this is if you've seen him play hands on 3rd that have paint down or a hidden pair, as that is the only way you can justify calling to make your 8 low.

Read my post again, I stated he could be just representing a 9 and from wakiki's description these guys play absolutely anything meaning he could have face cards. This is not a fold at all and if your folding under these conditions your wrong.

doing the exact math against a made 98, you are a 3-1 dog in the hand, thus making this a no fold at 5-1. I retract my answer.

My main problem is that I don't understand Razz odds. I generally only play 7 lows, (unless it's 3rd street and everyone behind me has higher cards of course), I just raise when I have a good hand, check/call when I'm drawing to a good hand but they have a good board, fold when I hit bad twice and they don't, fold if their board is amazing and I might be drawing to a worse low. Obviously I play more cautiously vs. players who don't show down with pairs/face cards in their 3rd street.

Is there any shorthand way of learning my odds of winning a hand? Or do I just need to plug in situations into a Razz calculator before I can get a good feel for the game? Anywhere I can watch Razz tournaments like I watch NLHE on TV? That would help alot, lol.

This might help:

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=r&b=&d=&h=

That will help with learning when you are a favorite and when you are a underdog in any given hand but getting the general feel of the game takes some practice.