I have been playing for about 3 hours and have worked my stack form 300 to 850 with a solid table image only shown down winners.

A new player comes to sit in the game UTG buys in for the full 500 $ (players is mid 20's and all wiggered out talking on a cell) and posts the 5 $is delt then opens for 20$, I look down on the button and see 2-3 off suit - now i think ( time charge is coming soon and i will be leaving but i also look at this guy and i am reading him as a total donkey) so i make the call and the small blind calls.

pot is 65

the flop comes A-4-4 and the small blind checks - wigger bets 40 - i call the the SB calls

pot is now 185 ( 7 rake taken) 177 $

turn is my golden 5 SB checks Wigger bets 100 i repop to 220 SB tanks and call 170 all in and the wigger stands up and asks me if i got a 4- i smile and he pushs i call and he turns over AK , SB shows 33 ?? and I show 23 - the river 10 and take it down .

now i told this hand to Vick12 and he thinks long term that this is -ev play.

but i think because of the the said situation it can be played profitably what do think ?

The preflop call is -EV, imho.

If you flop an open-ended draw with 23, you're drawing to the ignorant end. Otherwise, you're calling preflop hoping to flop a gutshot.

I think the appropriate calling range does widen against a bad player, but the game isn't deep enough to warrant calling with a hand that hits as seldom as 23o.

There's a timecharge and rake?

crown casino does a time charge and a rake on games 2-3 and 2-5 .
5-10 and up is time only
1-2 nl at crown is raked at 8% no cap

funny thing is i was reading HOC2 and Bobby Huff was talking about a 2-3 he played busting top set.
and 2-3 weeks later this hand came up.

i really think against the one raiser it can be profitable but against 2 people i am not sure

Lol. I'm reading you as a total donkey. Stop calling raises with 23o. It's not profitable. Ever.

you sir are mistaken and by saying some is not profitable "EVER" you lack the theory needed for deep stack play.
( this was not deep stack play)

I think pf is bad full ring mostly because players don't like to fold, so a lot of the equity you might have from being able to outplay him post flop is lost when he can't fold middle pair, and 23o is just so hard to do anything with as far as making hands. I think you know that though, so if you want to spend a raise calling with 23o thats personal choice. I'd wait for something slightly better like 96s or junk like that but pf isn't that important long term imo.

I'm guessing you're mostly asking if you should be calling for the gutter. I think that is a really bad call. Most players like to be getting somewhere around 15-1 for stacks to call for a gutter as a general rule. So he would need to have something like 550 behind minimum. Plus the board is paired so you could be drawing dead, he has a couple of extra outs to suckout the boat if you do hit the 5, and there is another guy behind you so you aren't even closing the action. All those things put together make it a clear fold imo.

Also, hi

Mark

great post mark ~

my call was purely based on the player and the fact he posted UTG and then goes on the open - which i felt was a pretty fishy move -
i also felt that the player had something like k-10 suited or Q-J off ~ something in that range and i felt i could call on the button .

my debate with Vick12 was my preflop play because he would not let me get to flop/postflop play -
the float on the flop i guess i didnt have the IO to call

thanks mark

Woops, I feel bad I didn't expand on my post the first time around.



It is not profitable. It's just not. And I completely do not understand the logic of telling me I can't play deep stacked games if I don't call raises with 32o (especially when the situation you are in isn't deep stacked) simply because you see some wigger kid sit down, which automatically makes him a fish in some bizarro-world of tells. Everyone posts in live games, it doesn't necessarily make them fish, it just makes them impatient.

I totally don't understand the logic of playing back at a fish with 32o and a then a gutshot if you get the hint that he is a fish. Isn't it easier to wait for any sort of decent hand than try to run a guy down with 4 outs (at best) without the necessary immediate odds or implied odds?

One last thing: Saying a few of the reasons for calling preflop are "I'm leaving soon," and "Time charge is coming," are pathetic. You have no reason to call preflop even if you "see" the kid as a donkey before you even play a single hand with him.

Let's break this down with all info assuming everything that you read is completely correct.

You are calling a raise from a person who you think is a donkey with 23 off suit. I am getting from your conversation that you think this guy is going to be a loose raising lagtard because of the post/raise UTG. I only see two possible scenarios for the call with 23o.

1. Hypothetically, having position on your villain you will miss your hand (a majority of the time) but be able to out play him by betting him off a hand that doesn't connect.

2. You will hit a miracle and because of the implied odds he is giving by playing poorly is worth the initial call because he will pay you off with his entire stack when you hit.

Now the problem with this is, given the read of your opponent, you will not usually succeed in the 1st (and more often) situation because of his apparent inability to fold when bet into. Which is exactly the same tendency that allows situation 2 to work so well.

So let's say for arguments sake you will be in situation 1 90% of the time and Situation 2 10%. As you can see against this opponent it is not worth the call to hit the miracle because most of the time you will be in the situation where you are trying to run a calling/re-raising station off his hand.

Now against a better player who knows how to fold it is actually more profitable to play the 23o in this spot because they won't pay you the implied odds when you hit but you will be able to run them off their hand more often.

It was a good read on your opponent and exactly what you thought would happen if you hit, happened. But it is more important to recognize that you are rarely gonna hit the longshots against these opponents and you might spend too much money in the long run trying to get there. Instead, bet for value against these guys (which you obviously did when you hit your hand) and save the 23o moves for better players that will respect your bets.

That is why this play is considered -ev.

Marchoine,

I believe the point everyone is trying to make is that against weaker opponents, you want to be playing your hands for value, instead of playing into their loose style.

That's not to say most of us at some point or another haven't played a hand like 23o hoping to stack a villain, but we're just trying to tell you that in the long run, if you want to punish this sort of player - raise his limps for value, instead of calling his raises to outplay him.

We have?

Yes, yes, we have.

but he won the hand, didn't he?

Also, this-



isn't really relevant when playing against a player new to the table, is it?

This is what happens when you post results. Now Zach thinks it was played okay.

Woops, I thought he lost, haha. Results > life.

Well played sir.

I have played with my fair amount of "wiggers" at the casino and they yes usually stroll in on there cell phones with there sideways KC hat since I live in KC. And they are always aggressive and usually loose all there money and overplay everything. So yea I would wait for a better spot to play with these kind of players besides 23o but i'm just going to agree with what everyone else has said.

the guy still over played AK

Given his bet sizes I think he might have under played it. Especially with 2 callers going to the flop. The only hand he really would ever put you on that beats him on the turn is a set of 5s. But he asked you if you had a 4 so while the guy probably deserved to lose his money I don't think I would ever try to bust a tard with 23.

Technically he underplayed it since he's getting calls from gutshots and underpairs. The only thing he did wrong was call a turn reraise where it's fairly clear he's beat.

To OP I never said he overplayed AK, I said in my experiences with these type of players they usually overplay everything and thats how they lose all there money.

nothing feels better then sending someone for a walk to the atm after the first hand

After all, this is the real goal in poker. Nothing to do with maximizing our returns, or anything like that! WIN POTS!!!!! ALL IN!!!!

This is one of the fishiest hands I've ever seen. Preflop is terrible, flop is terrible, turn smile is terrible. HU4ROLLZ? imo

Edit: Math is terrible too. 185 - 7 does not equal 177.

AND playing with both rake and time charge is terrible. Altogether, this might be one of the most -EV hands ever assembled.

And wait. You buy-in short for 300 and call some new kid a donkey without seeing him play a hand yet? This is one of the many reasons why poker is still profitable.

geeez i wonder what that other dollar missing is for hmmmmmmmm think ... think..... keep thinking !!! oh wait maybe i should draw you a map .

as for the rake and tme charge it works out to being pretty much the same as playing in a L.A. cardroom because of the no tipping law

if you play seven card stud i will play you HU4ROLLZ any time

Even though I don't play stud ever, your complete lack of poker understanding displayed in this hand makes me think I'd probably not be an underdog.

BTW you still didn't explain where the other dollar went. If there's a no tipping law, where does the other dollar go? Seems like you draw maps just about as well as you play poker.

lollllllll

The flop call isn't terrible. I think it's still a small mistake, but if you think you can stack the villain nearly all the time it's reasonable. But keep in mind that this flop is much better than average for our hand, we have a caller in between, and the call on the flop is still marginal. We are, in fact, quite fortunate to get a marginal situation after the flop. I think that makes it clear that our preflop call was poor.

Bellhop, obviously.

It's definitely pretty terrible. There's no debating it.

10:1 to make a gutshot in one card against top pair. The bet is 40, so we need to win 400. But because can still outdraw us on the river, our equity is still just 90% in that turn pot. So figure we need $450ish to break even.

The villain has 500 - 20 - 40 = 440 left. The pot is already 105. We win 545 when we stack one player.

I think a flop call is -EV, because we're occasionally drawing dead. But I might do it just for the metagame "wtf?" value of showing down 23o.

Preflop, on the other hand, is just spew.

You forgot the massively important element that we aren't closing the action. It makes this call about 10 times worse.

This really is a funny line.

You're forgetting the "Donkey calls you with 33" factor. That makes the call 8.5 times better, so it's almost a wash.

I think the situation is 50/50. It is either going to work or not.

Either way, nh gg wp sir.

2 problems.

1) There were no reads on the SB mentioned in the original hand so you are essentially being results oriented when mentioning this.

2) You cannot predict future actions so you cannot really account for them (you can expect them to overcall or whatever a fair amount of the time, but in extremely marginal situations like this, it makes a huge difference if they raise even one out of 15 times).

Fold Preflop

So, we should predict a check-raise, but it's against the rules to predict a call. Why is it different?

The only thing we're predicting is the possibility that it could be raised behind us and ruin our odds

So can we predict the possibility that it could be overcalled?

Without having been given reads, we have no reason to believe that it WOULD.

I really don't know how most of you guys aren't really able to grasp this fairly simple concept. You can't really justify thin calls with pot odds when you aren't closing the action. It's the reason a lot of spots that would normally be calls (if you were closing the action) become folds because you are put in a very awkward spot with people left to act behind.

What % of the time do you think a generic SB player check/raises this flop?

Love this thread.

once SNAMUH stopped acting like a douche he has made some very valid points and has brought something constructive to this thread ! good post sir

the 1$ was for the BBJ

Oh. I've never played in a casino with one (to my knowledge?) and don't know how it works.

I'd feel better about this hand if you won it with a check-raise bluff on the river.

You got lucky. Don't press your luck or you'll hit a whammy.