A little bit of background:

A close friend of mine from school talks up a home game which is high stakes and has its fair share of fish, but is mostly comprised of semi-professional gamblers. There are 2 tables - 1/2 and 2/5, but the 2/5 table is apt to play anything, including 15/30 and 20/40 limit sometimes.

So my friend and I sit down at the 6 handed 1/2 table. There is an unbelievably good jackal to my left. I would find myself in situations where I would be reraised, or I raise him and he pushes over the top of me quite frequently. I have a feeling these are bluffs sometimes, but perhaps he developed a good read on me rather quickly, and is semi-bluffing a lot.

So after 6 hours of play or so, I found myself roughly even after two big hands. I flop a flush draw and so does the jackal -- I bet, the jackal pushes, and I call. Cards come blank blank, and my Ace-high higher flush draw takes down roughly 500.

Another hand, he remarks "wow, I flopped quads" on a 2s 2d Qd flop. I have 4 to the flush draw and 2 overs with Ad Kd. I bet, he calls. Turn fills me up Td, I have the Ace high flush. He remarks "wow I have quads" I bet, he raises, I push, and his quad 2s hold up to take down roughly 500.

When many of the recreational players busted, we combined the 1/2 and the 2/5 tables. The game is 9 handed at this point, and everyone is a regular at this table except myself and my friend. The entire table agrees to make the game 1/2 NL - because my friend and I would have barely the appropriate stacks to play 2/5, though it doesnt matter, because the way they aggressively raise PF it may as well be 5/10 NL.

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The situation:
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I step into the big blind, and what do you know, I look at AsKs the first hand! It's raised to 15 preflop UTG, and he gets 4 callers! I make it 50 straight to go. I have 250 remaining. UTG folds, 2 more folds, button and small blind both call. Button has 2 or 3k at this point. Small blind has about the same # of chips as I do.

Flop: K 8 5 rainbow. Small blind immediately goes all-in, 225 straight, in a pot of about 195.

I notice at this point he is rocking back in forth in his seat repeatedly. In general, I think this is a tell for weakness because outwardly it appears as if someone is very excited about their hand, and can't hold it in. I feel there is a chance that this is an angle he is playing to get me to fold. I wonder what hands he puts me (an unknown player to him) and the button on. He is looking straight down at the felt, and elects not to talk or say anything to me. He is wearing earphones, so even if I tried to engage him, he might not even respond.

The button looks ready to fold, but I'm not sure if he's angle shooting or not. But he has both of his cards in his hands.

-Weeks after this hand took place, I spoke with fellow FCP-er and Boston cash game buddy Wily in person about what he thought and he told me "I would CALL. What other flop are you looking to hit with AK? AAK?"

-I am also friends with one of the regulars at that game, and his view was that the proper play at the time was FOLD. He was there when the hand took place.

Good players seem divided on this hand and situation. You don't really know the OP well at all, he's a regular at a high stakes game -- so he's competent, but you hit a great flop for your hand. Are you being priced in? What would you do?

I'd call. If he had pocket A's wouldn't he have reraised preflop before it made it to you? If he had the set, with no straight or flush draws would he be wanting to push everybody out...

With that board you are ahead of just about anything else I'd think.

I think it's more likely he's either also got A-K, or he's trying to push you with a second best pair (Q's or J's) or second best kicker (K-Q).

I dunno, I'd call. But I'd like to hear the arguments the other way.

I'm going to disagree here and say fold b/c he likely has a set of 8's or 5's.

Here's my reasoning and it's all predicated on the fact that you imply that the SB is a good player (you characterized him as "competent" and say he is a high stakes player.)

First, he cold-called both a preflop raise and then a re-raise, by you, the BB.

My first thought was middle pocket pair. Could be a high pocket pair, but I don't think so...would expect a big re-raise from a player like this.

So, he flops a set, and now what. While I agree that he doesn't want to push players off their hands with his set, I argue that his all-in bet is designed to get callers. Again, he's a "competent" player. He knows that you and UTG have strong hands, and probably connected with the K. In fact, he probably put one of you on AK. He's probably thinking that UTG doesn't have AA or KK because he just smooth called your re-raise. He may be worried that you have KK, but he's probably thinking, "If that's the case, so be it."

Finally, there aren't really any other hands that he could have that make sense, imo. So, I don't think he's making this move with 2 pair or any type of draw.

Bottom line, he believes he's ahead AND believes that you and/or the BB have hands that you probably can't lay down. He's getting all his money in now with what he believes is the best of it, rather than letting you outdraw him. He does think you will call, but with improper odds, so it would be a mistake. Therefore, if you do outdraw him, he's thinking "so be it".


Does that make sense?

What did he have?

with the depth of his stack in relation to this pot, I don't think your argument makes sense. He has just over the size of the pot and if he put anyone on AK, he can expect a bet on this flop and can check raise which will ultimatley be a much easier call. He may have a set, but it's a very stupid play because of the stack depth.

I don't think this type of play makes sense period. I don't think you can't make a living trying to push off AK on a flop like this by representing a set when you're first to act, and I think you're risking not getting called by pushing when you're likely to get people priced in if you check raise here.

I'd call. Hopefully he has kq, but I'm honestly pretty confused with this play.
Edit: Maybe a chop too with AK

Forgive me in advance if I am the one misunderstanding you, but I think you are misunderstanding me...LOL.

My point is that he's not trying to push anyone off anything. He wants a call here. He's not representing a set, he has one. He knows he'll get called because the preflop action and flop indicate that someone probably has connected hard.

And it's not a stupid play...the fact that he is short-stacked makes it all the more likely that he'll get called.

I understand that you figure he's looking to get called. All I'm saying is that he is unnecessarily making AK question his hand if he indeed has a set. If he were to check, AK is sure to bet and then the pot and his commitment will be big enough that AK will have to call a check raise all in while mutter " I guess you got me." That's why I think leading all in with this set is a stupid play. A check raise assures him of a call while he's putting doubt in AK's head for a much larger bet. (Leading this flop with the set with larger stacks would have been a very good play though)

OK, i see your point. I don't disagree with you. I just think a set is most likely here. Seriously, what other hands would you put him on to make a move like this, given that he's a good player and is very aware of the preflop action?

KQ is doubtful, given that he knows AA,KK and AK are likely holdings of his opponents.

I would put him on AK or QQ-JJ. There's no way anyone is playing a set like that. If he's competent look at his options: He can bet mediumish in to you, let you raise, flat call, check turn, let you bet and commit yourself possibly. His push is representing something much stronger than what he has. I'm thinking QQ or JJ mostly. No one likes to dump these hands preflop unless there's tons of action in front of you, but most of the time it'd be a horrible move to reraise a rerasise with them. I think everyone wants *at least* to see a flop with it, even though you know you're probably behind or barely a favorite (as what's possible in this case vs. the AK).

Just curious, what level do you play?

You just made the argument for why a skilled player WOULD push here with a set.

And QQ or JJ is very unlikely. He wouldn't push knowing that he's likely betting into a pair of kings or aces.

I have to disagree. What I did forget to say was that if the kid is a regular and since our hero here is a new player he could just be putting a move on him. The regular would also have to figure that our hero could have QQ and going allin here "to get value for his set" would only scare him away.

Obviously it's a play meant to confuse and you can argue either way, but rarely do I see people go allin to start the action when they think they're best. It's sort of along the lines of going allin preflop opening the action with aces or kings, rarely will you see that happen outside of tournament situations, because it rarely pays off.

I play 1/2 and 2/5NL.

that's why I said whatever hand the villain has, I think he played it awful. I'm calling here with Ak still I think. I got the type of flop I wanted, but I just wasn't expecting the action I got. If the board were more coordinated and I could include a number of two pair possibilities or str8/flush draw with mid pair, maybe I would be scared enough of the raise. In the case where you know that only a set will have you (because two pair seems highly unlikely with the board), I think you have to pay it off.

My sentiments exactly, Scott.

On an uncoordinated board a set should make bets that you will call... not ones that will push you off your hand. He's either misplaying it horribly, or he doesn't have it. I would call.

Also noticed one more thing about this hand. By pushing with the set, which he likely believes to have a strangle hold on this hand, he would be shutting out the button who may have caught a piece of the flop too (maybe kq). Given a check with a set, MP Bets and maybe you get a call from the button or a raise and then you can push with the set. With the all in lead MP calls with AK then kq is not going to call and you probably outsmarted your way out of a bigger pot.

I think this is pertinent because the OP called this a HIGH level game. no draws on board with a set, I'm looking to get both guys with top pair in the action. Which ultimately leads me to believe that I'm good here with AK.

let's say that i would call in the game, but i would probably regret it after.

this is a very controversial and debatable decision that could go both ways, but i tend to think that you should fold in this spot.

(or maybe you should call...)

again, i would most likely call, and afterwards consider it a bad call.

aseem

i think him rocking back is a sign he's relaxed, meaning he has a good hand

it still could be an overplayed KQs,

but thats the only hand i think i could put him on that you have beat

fold

what happened in the hand?

Betting into 2 like that...wow...confusing.

I think a set is most likely. As your friend said, that is exactly the kind of flop you want to see, but with the speed he pushed I doubt he has a set. Kind of a strange hand. I'd say a reluctant call would be best. The cold-calling followed by a quick bet could be indicative of any high pair, I would think.

Well first off, what do you think the all-in guy puts you on? He seems to want to push some people out of this pot, because if he had a really strong hand he'd atleast check-raise. With your reraise PF, I think he puts you on a pocket pair, probably QQ or JJ. That being said, what hands would he want to push you out with but still have a strong enough hand to show down with if he gets called? KQ or maybe splitting AK. Or a PP that didn't trip. If he thinks you have a PP under the king, you may fold when he represents the K or set. If he has a King and wants PPs to pay to try and trip, then you more than likely have his kicker beat, or at worst you split. I really really don't think he has a set. But then I don't think he's betting that much into 2 people with less than the K, incase someone else has it and calls. I put him on AK or KQ. I had a friend who used to rock back and forth subconsciously, and he only did it (I think) when he was nervous or bored. Shaking is more of a tell of a big hand than rocking is, atleast from what I've seen. But even if you spotted a tell that he's strong, how strong? You can't tell if he has a K or a set from a tell. Atleast none that I know of...

I'm looking forward to hearing the results. The disagreement amongst us shows how tricky of a hand this really was. I realize that I'm in the minority with regards to thinking he has a set, but that's ok. It's helpful to hear different points of view. After reading through the entire thread again, I see the validity in your arguments. That said, I still lean toward my read on this hand.

To the people who say that the small blind played this awful:
Look how confused we are about this hand, and look at the amount of people who are advocating paying him off. I think you can certainly call this play "creative" but not "awful" by a long shot.

What this guy doesn't have:
AA, KK: No way he'd limp these into a 5 way pot, then simply call when it gets jacked to 50 with a caller. There's a 160 in the pot or so right then, and he's only got 250 more behind. You've gotta figure those chips are going into the middle right then and there, before the flop.

QQ, JJ, TT: I can understand him getting a good price to take a flop with these here, and I probably would have as well. I'd also have probably pushed on the flop if I hit, or was an overpair. You said this guy was competent though, and he's gotta know that the other 2 people who called 50 bucks to see this flop have to have pretty cards of some sort. A push from first to act in this situation is just too reckless for someone labelled as "competent", especially since the first inclination for anyone with any kind of a stack and a K in their hand is to call.

AQ, KQ, KJ: Is a competent player going to think that with that kind of action preflop that any of these hands are NOT dominated? Not a chance. If your classification of this player is remotely correct, he doesn't have these hands.

What this guy COULD have:
AK: Totally possible. His playing is very consistent for AK from a shorter stack. He knows he's paying off AA at this point, but wouldn't mind taking such a respectively large pot down, so the push is consistent with this hand. Sure, you could be folding your 95 dollar share of that pot if you fold now.

88,55: With that much preflop action, he's getting a GREAT price to try and make a set...15 bucks 5 ways is a pretty good situation for one of these hands. I'd take a flop with these in this situation too. I wouldn't have been worried about the BB making it 50 to go, heh, but when that happened and another caller came in, I'm still getting 4-1 or so to call the 35 buck raise. I'd be pretty ticked about the raise, but I'd probably take the flop too. On that flop, knowing full well that everyone is holding good cards, a push isn't that bad. In fact, I'd say from the reactions he's getting, it might be a higher value play than the transparent check/raise.

67s: I'm surprised no one brought this up. A 5 way pot with a decent amount of cash in the middle is a good situation to take a flop with this hand. Especially when he doesn't expect the BB to make it 50 to go. He knows this hand most likely isn't dominated, and if it hits, the deception value is high enough to allow him to get paid. Again, he's upset about the raise, but getting enough on his money to call. This is a much more likely hand than the KQ everyone seems to hope he'll turn over. Again, this depends entirely on the level of the player we're talking about...I'm going by "competent" at high stakes, which equates to "good". Is a "good" player going to take a flop for 7.5xBB with that many callers knowing that anything short of a miracle flop is gonna be a winner? A good player would much rather take that flop with 67s than KQ, if they choose to play either. Granted, this would be "mixing it up", but again, the limp/call is consistent with someone taking a slightly speculative flop that wasn't expecting the raise out of the BB. A push here with an OESD is gutsy, for sure, but the play has merit.

So, he's either pushing with AK, an OESD, or a number of hands that have you smoked, with the notable exception of an outright bluff. Should you really put 225 in the middle, knowing you lose or split this pot a LOT more than you win it? Unless you had a real sophisticated read on him, you don't have enough information to call here, out of position. If you DO call, as near as I can figure, the button is getting to play 695 dollars for 225....3 to 1 with no possibility of future betting. More than likely, he doesn't HATE this flop either, so I'd be worried about showing this hand down 3 ways too. His really large stack would give him latitude here. When you look at all this, I think a fold is the only thing you can really do.

zDaddy:I agree with your assessment of possible starting hands except for 67. With the reraise, 67 is getting out. this pot is getting too big for me to want to play around for a reraise to 25x's the BB.

To the people who say that the small blind played this awful:
Look how confused we are about this hand, and look at the amount of people who are advocating paying him off. I think you can certainly call this play "creative" but not "awful" by a long shot.

I believe it's awful if he has a set because for the few times that AK does not call in this spot, the bettor is losing money with a set.

In fact, I'd say from the reactions he's getting, it might be a higher value play than the transparent check/raise.
He could easily check raise this flop with the size of his chip stack and be sure to get all his chips in the center with virtually no risk of AK folding.
Check, raise to 125-150, maybe a call, reraise (call 125-150 and 100-75 more on top) into a pot that is now either over 300 or over 400. AK is still going to call here just because the pot is so big. If he has a set, he is unneccesarily risking not getting called and is also shutting out the button.

And clearly as I said if he doeesn't have a set and has a hand like QQ JJ, he's probably going to get called more times than not by AK. So it's an awful play. I will amend my original statement though, if he does have AK, then this is the right play.

About the reads on the player too... I believe this was the OP's first hand.

Honestly I do not know what to think the bettor has. (Even though he has me confused, I still believe he played it awful. A complete retard that thinks 2 pair is better than three of a kind can confuse me... it doesn't mean that i think the plays he makes on me are good)

I am very curious as to what the results were (even though results aren't supposed to matter), as there is clearly some dissention amongst the ranks.

My thoughts on the hand:

Don't even sit down at that table...lol..way out of my BR :wink:

Dividing all values by ten though, and I can get a more realistic thought as to what I was going to do here.

We caught an almost ideal flop for our hand, so I think you have to go all-in ourselves. If he has a set, so be it, but I cannot realistically see myself laying down top pair top kicker (you said flop was a rainbow, but did we catch a part of that rainbow with our suited AK)? There will ALWAYS be a possibilty that someone catches a set on any flop, so you can't play scared in these types of situations. More often than not, you have the hand won. If this isnt an ideal flop for you to get all your money in the middle with, then I think your expectations are a little high. :wink:

zDaddy:I agree with your assessment of possible starting hands except for 67. With the reraise, 67 is getting out. this pot is getting too big for me to want to play around for a reraise to 25x's the BB.

He knows the he closes the action on a call, and he's getting over 4-1 on a call, even with the raise. I agree, he wouldn't have liked the raise from 15-50, but he's getting a good enough price to call here that we can't rule it out from his possible hands.

I believe it's awful if he has a set because for the few times that AK does not call in this spot, the bettor is losing money with a set.

From a strict EV persepctive, I would be inclined to agree, though with the tendencies at the table, of which we have no idea, it could be real darn close. If you throw in the unexpectedness of it/metagame aspect of this play on table image/future hands, it has merit. Again, there are enough benefits to this play to allow someone to choose it, hence we can't rule it out.

He could easily check raise this flop with the size of his chip stack and be sure to get all his chips in the center with virtually no risk of AK folding.
Check, raise to 125-150, maybe a call, reraise (call 125-150 and 100-75 more on top) into a pot that is now either over 300 or over 400. AK is still going to call here just because the pot is so big. If he has a set, he is unneccesarily risking not getting called and is also shutting out the button.

Again, almost every single poster in this thread is in agreement that this bet screams MARGINAL HAND. Could we check/raise someone and get them committed to the pot if they had AK? Certainly. Since the initial instinct to this bet is bluff, however, he's generating the possibility of action from QQ or JJ in this situation, which are both likely hands for our Hero and the Button to have. I have to reiterate, I don't believe this to be the best financial play here. I think people are underestimating the merit of this play too much, though. There are enough benefits to this play to allow a decent, creative player to choose it, and therefore we cannot rule it out safely. To say "Any decent player would check/raise a set without fail here, so he likely doesn't have the set" as more than a couple of people have here is an improper analysis.

And clearly as I said if he doeesn't have a set and has a hand like QQ JJ, he's probably going to get called more times than not by AK. So it's an awful play. I will amend my original statement though, if he does have AK, then this is the right play.

Agreed. If he's overplaying a lower PP, this is just dumb. Exactly why I don't think he is doing so.

About the reads on the player too... I believe this was the OP's first hand.

It was the first hand after the tables condensed, and everyone else at the table was a regular. They'd been playing all night. Furthermore, he thought enough of the guy to consider that he was using fake tells. With those two things, we have to assume the read on the player isn't "dead money".

Honestly I do not know what to think the bettor has. (Even though he has me confused, I still believe he played it awful. A complete retard that thinks 2 pair is better than three of a kind can confuse me... it doesn't mean that i think the plays he makes on me are good)

Isn't any action we take at a poker table designed to force our opponenets to make poor decisions? If that's the case, any play designed to confuse our opponents cannot be inherently awful. It might not be the highest value play, but it can't be all that bad. If he DID hit the set, and he makes this play, people such as yourself (observant poker players who know what they're doing) are going to be left with an impression. Also, it's risk free on the part of the bettor, since he's not behind in the hand. So, he chooses a play with ARGUABLY less EV on it which could have the side effect of thoroughly confusing other players at the table, which in turn leads to him being seen as unpredictable. That's a beautiful thing. Don't you agree that this would set up other bluffing opportunities in the future? At a high action game with a lot of preflop action, being able to bluff a pot down is a pretty powerful thing. Of course we can't say for sure that he was considering ANY of this. However, we can't say that he wasn't, and this is all much more likely than a higher stakes regular overplaying KQ preflop. I still advocate the fold.

I think that no matter what the all-in guy has, it was a good play, as it has many people so very confused as to what to do...lets hope it is Krablar!!! :wink:

We caught an almost ideal flop for our hand, so I think you have to go all-in ourselves. If he has a set, so be it, but I cannot realistically see myself laying down top pair top kicker (you said flop was a rainbow, but did we catch a part of that rainbow with our suited AK)? There will ALWAYS be a possibilty that someone catches a set on any flop, so you can't play scared in these types of situations. More often than not, you have the hand won. If this isnt an ideal flop for you to get all your money in the middle with, then I think your expectations are a little high. :wink:

Yeah, it's a fantastic flop for AK, no doubt about it. However, the situation absolutely sucks. The original bettor cannot possibly place too much of a success rating on pushing someone off of AK. Therefore, it's either a completely horrible misanalysis, or he isn't scared of AK. What can this guy possibly think our hero has? I think he's HOPING someone has AK. He's betting on it. Either that, or he's saying "I won't let you push me off of MY AK". I could run the math of each possibility, and then we could nit-pick over my assigned percentages, but I honestly believe that we're getting 2-1 on a pot we lose 75% of the time. It's a bad situation, and unless our OP brough proper UV protection and can look into the small blind's soul, it's a laydown.

What did he have?! The aniticpation is killing me!!!

:shock:

i talked to chief (the OP) yesterday. he doesn't know what villian had, because he folded his A-K (and the button folded behind him). villian mucked and refused to say what he had, though chief notes that as he folded, he said "i'm folding A-K", and villian had a "sheepish" look on his face. i told him that i would tend to believe that the sheepish look means villian had a strong hand and wanted a call (a lot of bluffers often subconsciously nod or similar after they bluff successfully, on the other hand), so i believe the fold might have been correct.

aseem

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the OP is calling 1-2 NL a "high stakes game," and that he's quoting personality types from Hellmuth's book?

Actually I thought the re-raise preflop with AKs from the big blind was odd.

It has been raised once, now he is reraising out of position. Personally with AK in early position I would have probably called the preflop raise, not reraised. He didnt gain much information with the reraise, he dropped 2 players that could have added to his pot if he hit a HUGE hand. Plus he is out of position.

I realize AKs is a group one hand, but I just dont like the situation enough to reraise from this position this early into the game.

[quote]Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the OP is calling 1-2 NL a "high stakes game," and that he's quoting personality types from Hellmuth's book?[/quote]

I have never read Hellmuth's book. I read the term "jackal" on the forums and thought it appropriately described some of the people I play with.

Second, the only reason they were playing 1/2 was to accommodate my stack size and my friend's stack size. This game took place at an underground cardroom -- where semi-pro gamblers come several times a week and cash out in the thousands each night. If you read my original post, you would realize that the game played like a "5/10 no max buyin" table. It was in fact 1/2 table, but every hand on average -- it was at least 25 to see a flop. The average stack was probably 1500.

Thanks to everyone else for the constructive feedback! I spoke with Akishore a couple days ago, I layed the AK down. It was a very hard laydown at the time. The button layed down his hand, whatever it was. I'm pretty sure I was beat, no way to know for sure though.[/quote]

I reraised with AKs to isolate, Kev

chief, what do you feel about just calling pre-flop in that scenario?

i tend to agree with kevin garceau:

1. you're out of position compared to the original raiser as well as a few of the callers. position is huge in NL.

2. A-K isn't a drawing hand per se, but in NL, it's a hand you either want to be cautious with pre-flop or you want to stick it all in. i don't think you can afford to reraise here and really play comfortably post-flop if you miss (which you will 2/3 of the time).

aseem

I agree with some of what you are saying. I don't like raising with Ace King (suited or no) in the BB when you have limpers, but when it is raised ahead of you, I like being able to hopefully whittle down the playing field by putting in my own raise here. :wink:

in that case, i might have reraised more. UTG raised to 15 and got four callers, so with your call, the pot would be $90. i would make a pot-sized reraise here, but you only reraised $35 more, giving everyone almost 3-to-1 odds to call, right?

i might have made it $100 straight, or maybe $90 to go (raise of $75) or something similar if i chose to reraise.

aseem

so bluffed.

Haven't been free for the last few days due to finals period, but I'll throw in my thoughts. Thinking about what I was saying before, I believe that how your playing style deals with AK/AQ/etc. determines what you should be doing here. If you're reraising to $50 with AK , I just don't think you can be laying your hand down on a safe K high board here - there's no other broadway cards for a likely two-pair, and no possible straights/flushes or likely draws to them. If you're going to be living in fear of an underset on even a perfect looking board like this, I don't think you should reraise with AK and commit a large % of your stack into the hand. Like I said before, when you made your raise, what type of flop were you looking for? If the flop had been A XX, would you have called an all-in What about AK X? The pot is big enough with your reraise that you only have to be correct 50% of the time to make calling this all-in a correct move. From the posts here so far, I think it's fairly likely that QQ/JJ, Kx, and AK would make the immediate push all-in, and that a set is fairly unlikely in playing like this. Out of the possibilities, AK or KQ seem most likely - especially if they read you on QQ or JJ, and don't want to allow any more draws.

Now, if you hadn't reraised, the pot may not be big enough to make calling the correct move, especially because more junk hands might be seeing the flop. In a higher level game like this, I may have just smoothcalled preflop with AK, and see how the hand develops from the amount of action on each street. Most likely, your opponent won't be pushing all in the flop if there was no raise, and you could raise for information and try to manage pot size accordingly.

Finally, would it have made a difference if, in the same situation, the opponent had checked to you, you bet maybe 1/2 to 2/3 the pot ($60-100), and he raised all in? If you would've called then, I think you still have to call now...