http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html

Our army has a relatively high percentage of uneducated christian douchebags?

I, for one, don't believe it.

YEAHWELL IF IT WEREN'T FOR THEM YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING GERMAN RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!!one!!!1!!

As a fellow pretty-much-non-jewish-jew you might appreciate the amount of amusement that I'm currently getting due to the fact that my cousin is dating a man named Adolph. It's almost too funny to handle when my grandmother and mother talk about how much it upsets them (above and beyond the problem of him being a gentile).

Oh g-d... LMAO!
I guess that's the ultimate rebellion for a Jewish girl. Probably the equivalent of shishka's who copulate with Negroes and bring home a halfie grandson to dear old dad...

The perfect trifeca would be if he were poor to boot.

I like how you assume that speedz's cousin is a girl

I know, right.. it's not like the odds are about 20-1 in scram's favor of it being a girl or anything, how crazy he is to assume.

Sheesh - it was a joke

Playing on the irony of a jewish grandmother/mother being so upset over the name of the boyfriend that they completely overlook their old world views on fudge-packers

Speedz's post...

"As a fellow pretty-much-non-jewish-jew you might appreciate the amount of amusement that I'm currently getting due to the fact that my cousin is dating a man named Adolph. It's almost too funny to handle when my grandmother and mother talk about how much it upsets them (above and beyond the problem of him being a gentile)."

...becomes even more amusing when you assume his cousin is a guy.

Oh well, swing and a miss I guess.

yes, yes, i got what you were trying to do, thus the "1-20"

It's just, when you say " I like how he assumes it's a girl", the emphasis there is on the assumption itself rather than the potential gayness of his cousin, as if you're trying to make some point about how we in a society, given an ambiguous, non-gender specific sentence, will assume hetrosexual gender identities. Which is why I made my post, because that sort of assumption is 100 percent understandable.

Who told you to put the crucifix on?





What a pussy.

How do you refuse to pray at Thanksgiving dinner?

Did they ask everyone to stand and bow? or what? Did he refuse to stand? Was he asked to say Grace and couldn't in good conscience say: Thanks for the food, amen"? Is he going to lose out his place in oblivion if he doesn't stand true to atheism 100% of the time?

How many people stand up, think about something else and sit down?

Sounds like he's a whiner who wants his 15 minutes of fame and is shocked that the world doesn't suffer whiners.

Except at CNN. There they promote them to head editor

just like you to pick out the one example from the article and ignore what's implied about the overall picture. obviously it's not just about the one incident. presumably units pray together a lot.

to some people the self-esteem and integrity they have in this life is just as important as heaven is to you. how would you feel if you had to work with a bunch of dems who required you to recite liberal mantras every day or else be an outcast?



apparently you missed the part where it said his life was threatened.

You mean like the time another soldier, after escaping death with him, leans over and asks if he believes in Jesus now? Yea, I was really avoiding that because it was so clear that this is the army's posisiton on IEDs.

I didn't go to college partly to avoid this.



Yea, we all believe that.

So some whiner has to make every single incident that happens all about his personal belief that there is no God and then whines when people don't change everything in order to fit his new beliefs and we are suppose to fear that the military has a secret 'code' that prevents getting promotions?

Next thing you'll know he'll spend all his time on some random internet site, spouting his all encompassing opinion about there being no God 24/7.

Maybe he felt threatened or maybe he did not.

When my Mother in Law wants to say grace at Xmas dinner, I bow my head in respect for her beliefs. When I was in High School and our football team huddled to say a prayer, I huddled with them. It is about comradery in the military, if 90+% of the people in the military are Christian or lean toward that religion and they want to say a prayer before they go into battle, and all of a sudden someone is standing off to the side, or throwing a fit for something that is harmless regardless of his belief system, then they are not going to trust him. Simple as that. So I am sure if he was overly vocal in these scenarios and made a scene, I can see where he would be harassed and/or even threatened.

The military in our lifetime is a voluntary organization. He was not drafted, he chose to enlist, he himself was one of the Christian believers, at any point do you think he stood up then and said please do not pray we may be offending an Atheist, or a Buddhist in our group.

If when he is out of the military and he is at a Sporting event and he does not want to stand for the star spangled banner, or recite the pledge of allegiance because of the word God, then so be it. But I am sorry this is not the place to make your anti-religious stand.

all the article said was that he refused to pray himself and was discriminated against for it. there was nothing mentioned about whining, throwing fits, or making any sort of anti-religious stand. you guys are writing your own assumption-based stories.

So he believes in killing people?

maybe you should ask why any christian would believe in killing people.

I gave up on christianity a long time ago. I just find it funny that someone can go to the army and not expect to have to accept some things to survive. He's in Iraq not a call centre

LOL.... typical atheist. They should all go to HELL !

Wait... is that fair?

Well.. they should all go to whatever the bad atheist place is!

It is this simple, if the soldiers all take a knee and one says a prayer and he does not take a knee, regardless of how he feels about that prayer, it is going to piss everyone off and show a lack of comradery. Simple as that. I am not saying it is right for the other soldiers to attack him or threaten him, but it is what it is, and anyone in that situation is going to have to conform. This is much different than if you were at a board meeting and every week your CEO wanted everyone to hold hands around the table a listen to a prayer.

the point is they shouldn't have to conform because it's unconstitutional. if the military is operating in an unconstitutional manner it needs to be fixed.

this post is sad. basically you are excusing discrimination by saying that the victim should know better considering his surroundings.....he was asking for the abuse.

I bet you are a huge hit with rape victims. Your honor, I am not saying it is right to rape a girl but she was dressed provacatively in a club and it is what it is. Anyone in that situation is going to have to conform and accept being gangbanged.

whether this guy is just a whiner is a fair question. excusing discrimination because of the importance of comraderie is pathetic.

nobody joins the military expecting that they have to give up their religious freedom.

But they're ok with taking lives.

edited because i don't feel like getting into a long debate with "veterans"

i don't see the relevance. requiring recruits to kill is not unconstitutional. requiring recruits to actively participate in religious worship is.

Well-played !

you realize you're jack nicholson on the stand here and i'm tom cruise.

on second thought, ick.

I will have to give you this:



VS




It's clearly a no brainer

But one whiner complaings to CNN and they get to make assumptions about official policy of the entire US military.

Careful, your double standards are showing again.

Here's the thing..

On one hand, I think that yes, technically, he has a constitutional right not to be discriminated based on his religion. However, I think him being a vocal and avid atheist is a detriment to being in a position of authority in a combat unit. The army is filled with many religious people, some of them none too bright, and being unwilling to lead your unit or what ever in prayer is just silly and is a lost opportunity to establish your leadership. You're asking these people to kill, to be brave, and to operate under extreme pressure. Any trick you can pull off to get their minds clear, to get the anxiety out of their minds, you should be willing to do, and leading a prayer is an extremely practical way to do it and refusing to do it because of some principal is extremely foolish. Getting shot at is not the time to take this kind of stand moral stand.

Actually El Guapo's use of unit cohesion being a factor is also at the backbone of the landmark Clinton ruling of 'Don't ask, Don't tell'.

Same exact reasons.

Well said, but without a picture or at least a reference to Tom Cruise, then I fear this will fall on deaf ears.

And I thought the dont ask, dont tell policy was bad too.

I am not saying I disagree with you and Guapo about this issue generally. I see no reason why you cant just bow your head and not pray....making a big scene about how this offends your atheistic principles is a bit silly. As always, religious beliefs are best kept to oneself.

However, I still had to comment on Guapo's post. I dont like excusing discrimination based on time/place/situation.....it is a bad policy.

you also are reading something in the article that isn't there. there is no mention of him being a vocal and avid atheist in a position of authority, and no example given where he suddenly picked some militarily critical situation to make a "stand".

yes but obviously at some point this guy made it known that he was atheist and that he found the emphasis on Christianity or Christian prayer uncomfortable.

honestly, it sounds more like his fellow soldiers enjoyed giving him a hard time. the part about the IED explosion and the "do you believe in Jesus now?" sounds much more like ball-busting than discrimination.

why obviously? how do you know he just didn't want to personally participate in prayer and others were entirely responsible for the confrontation?



obviously if he's saying his life was threatened he's either a liar, or it's way beyond ball-busting.

why obviously? because how else would anyone know? he obviously made a show of not participating at some point....otherwise no one would know to confront him about it.

and I was only saying the example he cited there sounds like ball-busting not a threat. there could have been other instances not mentioned.

This is what my post was almost entirely refrencing..




And I think the army is right.

This is what I was getting at.



Right, I am not saying it is correct, but again I don't think it is the correct place to try and make a religious (or anti-religious stand).



Bad policy, yes I guess you could say that, but when you have an overwhelming majority doing something (that in itself is not harmful to anyone) you should not be making a point to exclude yourself from it (I am using situational analysis here, not relating to other areas of life). Again, if he wants to do this in any other facet of life, go for it. But there is a mob mentality at work here, and the more attention he brings on himself, the worse it is going to get. I am in no way delusional that what is happening is not technically wrong, but at the same time he needs to heed his surroundings. This is not the same as Nazi Germany asking Jews to convert or they will kill them. And I don't want to here a slippery slope argument either, because it is not like the Military itself is requiring prayer before a battle and if you don't you are dishonorably discharged, but it is common practice based on the masses of Christian soldiers to do such.

him vocalizing that he found the emphaisis on christian prayers uncomfortable is not implicit. all the article implied is that he didn't want to say them himself. for all we know he could care less if everyone else said them.

Yes but him just not wanting to say them himself would not have started others making comments/discriminating against him. He had to do more than just not want to say them.....he either had to tell others he didnt want to say them or do something during prayer that made it clear he was uncomfortable saying them. How else would anyone know to give him a hard time about it? Telepathy? Reading his body language?

They're not making assumptions, they're making accusations. There's a difference.



Unfortunately, this is the world we live in. The military probably consists of one of the least enlightened (in terms of religious tolerance) groups out there. Some day this won't be an issue, but for now we have to just accept the fact that, in the armed forces, dumbass christians vastly outnumber intelligent christians and all non-christians. And if we want to keep them happy we'll have to deal with a few atheists that are too stubborn to bow their heads once in a while out of respect to the people who take strength from prayer.

The point is that we don't know if the conversation was:

Christian: Aren't you going to pray?
Atheist: No, I don't believe in God. You go ahead, I'll hang back.

or

Christian: Aren't you going to pray?
Atheist: OF COURSE NOT, YOU DUMB FUCK! THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION IS A FUCKING SCAM AND YOU'RE ALL BRAINWASHED MORONS! DOWN WITH JESUS!

Good point. But even with the first scenario it is going to cause tension.

Unfortunately the military is just not comparable to pretty much any other scenario. Sports and Law Enforcement a bit. You could exclude yourself from those things there, and not have your life threatened, but it could still be made an uncomfortable working environment.

I would almost bet money on version #2

i was responding to your assumption that he "found the emphasis on christianty and christian prayer uncomfortable". the implication there is that he cares what others do around him. if that's not what you meant, sorry.

Then you would be dead wrong. I'll expand more later since I don't have time right now. I watched a documentery on this and it was downright scary. They put this kid through hell. He basically wouldn't sign up for the Christian Fellowship and they threatened to kill him. It was a very thin line between what they are doing and Hezbollah.

But only because of the ignorance of the people around him. I just think it's important to make that distinction.



Of course you would. And I would bet on version #1. Partially because if it was version #2 there would also be stories about him getting the shit kicked out of himself by constantly offending hyped up adrenalin junkie christian soldiers. And, honestly, I wouldn't be upset if he did get beat up after saying something like that...but it didn't happen, so I doubt that was the case.

Anyways, the point we're making is that none of us know for sure how it went down...I think this was brought up because BG and company were making too many assumptions.

EDIT: Just saw Rando's post...of course I was right. I always am. You christians around here, this is why people like me are so wary of religious people. Some of you are great, but too many of you are fucking insane assholes for us to be fully comfortable with the idea that the world is full of you.

http://ocf.gospelcom.net/

Imagine this in Farsi.

Sargeants, captains and even some generals were aware and more or less sicked the right wing nutbags on him.

What kind of morality does Christianity have that they want to kill non-Christians?

He didn't want to go attend there propaganda meetings and got slammed.

understandable....I didnt phrase it quite right.