jmbreslin
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Micro stakes STT. I had recently taken a bunch of chips from villain when I flopped T2P w/ AK in a blind battle and got him to lead into me and call my turn check-raise w/ TPWK. How do you play this differently?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed)
Poker-Stars Converter Tool from
FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG (t1325)
MP1 (t1400)
MP2 (t2737)
Hero (t2300)
Button (t3225)
SB (t1440)
BB (t1073)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

, 8

.
3 folds,
Hero raises to t300, Button calls t300,
2 folds.
Flop: (t750) A

, K

, A
(2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.
Turn: (t750) Q
(2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.
River: (t750) A
(2 players)Hero checks,
Button bets t400, Hero calls t400.
jmbreslin
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Oh, and I called the river because I figured he would have bet the flop or turn with virtually any hand that beats me on the river.
Mercury69
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Well, at least it was inexpensive
copernicus
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 2:43 PM
HU on a paired board, lead the flop. Particularly with AA and its such a scary board that you know if he calls/raises to shut down from there.
jmbreslin
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 4:13 PM
Yeah, good point - leading the flop is likely to get me important info. Do you CB for about 1/2 pot there?
simo_8ball
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 4:19 PM
$450 is good on that flop imo.
Nopair3high
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 4:53 PM
Yea.. agreed.. bet the flop. maybe even bet the turn if he just calls your bet on the flop. Unless he's slow playing a monster against you, he's as scared of that board as you are. 40-50% of the pot is probably a good bet on the flop.
copernicus
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 6:54 PM
QUOTE (simo_8ball @ Monday, June 30th, 2008, 5:19 PM)

$450 is good on that flop imo.
Yeah, that sounds good. You need to look like your protecting an A against a flush draw, but not so much that you scare away potential action.
Sheiky
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 3:58 AM
I wouldn't call the river, he can value bet absolutely everything by then and It seems like a really random spot to bluff given that at this level he's likely to get looked up by someone playin the board
TravisG
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 4:39 AM
QUOTE (Sheiky @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 1:58 PM)

I wouldn't call the river, he can value bet absolutely everything by then and It seems like a really random spot to bluff given that at this level he's likely to get looked up by someone playin the board
yeah, you said it, it's basically a really random spot and that's why i call.
copernicus
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 6:42 AM
QUOTE (TravisG @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 5:39 AM)

yeah, you said it, it's basically a really random spot and that's why i call.
If youre going to call, bet. You can fold out better hands easily with that board.
cdipierr
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 10:23 AM
Hate to be a "me too", but yeah, bet the flop. If he calls, you're done with the hand, but you'll get plenty of folds in the long term from anything that might catchup later.
Jam-Fly
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 10:42 AM
300-400 on flop. don't really see the point in betting higher than that
as played, I think I call the river. He has a bluff here enough for it to be profitable I think
jmbreslin
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 11:21 AM
As it turns out he did have a King - I'm guessing he didn't bet the flop because he was scared of an Ace, and then didn't bet the turn when the flush card fell. When I checked the turn he figured his K was good so led out.
Hard to know if a flop bet would have folded him given that he was holding a K.
Sheiky
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 11:39 AM
QUOTE (jmbreslin @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 8:21 PM)

Hard to know if a flop bet would have folded him given that he was holding a K.
betting the flop would never fold a king in a million years
AimHigher
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 2:08 PM
QUOTE (jmbreslin @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 8:21 PM)

As it turns out he did have a King - I'm guessing he didn't bet the flop because he was scared of an Ace, and then didn't bet the turn when the flush card fell. When I checked the turn he figured his K was good so led out.
Hard to know if a flop bet would have folded him given that he was holding a K.
It really doesn't matter because you are making a C-bet against his range not his individual hand.
Let's say you make a C-bet of 450. That would be 37.5% of the total pot. That means you are saying: "I wager that this bet will make you fold at least 37.5% of your range."
If he calls more than 37.5% of the time, it's -EV. If he folds more than 37.5%, it's +EV.
Sheiky
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 2:12 PM
QUOTE (AimHigher @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 11:08 PM)

It really doesn't matter because you are making a C-bet against his range not his individual hand.
Let's say you make a C-bet of 450. That would be 37.5% of the total pot. That means you are saying: "I wager that this bet will make you fold at least 37.5% of your range."
If he calls more than 37.5% of the time, it's -EV. If he folds more than 37.5%, it's +EV.
I'm not good at math, but i'm pretty sure the % he needs to fold for a bet to be profitable isn't the % of the pot you bet
copernicus
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 2:45 PM
QUOTE (AimHigher @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 3:08 PM)

It really doesn't matter because you are making a C-bet against his range not his individual hand.
Let's say you make a C-bet of 450. That would be 37.5% of the total pot. That means you are saying: "I wager that this bet will make you fold at least 37.5% of your range."
If he calls more than 37.5% of the time, it's -EV. If he folds more than 37.5%, it's +EV.
QUOTE (Sheiky @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 3:12 PM)

I'm not good at math, but i'm pretty sure the % he needs to fold for a bet to be profitable isn't the % of the pot you bet
Youre good enough at math to know thats wrong!
I think where AimHigher was intending to go is that if youre bluffing (so P(winning)=P(villain folds)), then you need to bet the % of the pot that makes him fold at least half the time?
jmbreslin
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 4:14 PM
Unfortunately I'm not good enough at math to follow what any of you are saying...
AimHigher
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 5:24 PM
QUOTE (copernicus @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 11:45 PM)

Youre good enough at math to know thats wrong!
I think where AimHigher was intending to go is that if youre bluffing (so P(winning)=P(villain folds)), then you need to bet the % of the pot that makes him fold at least half the time?
Where did I go wrong?
Isn't the percantage we need him to fold the result of: bet / (bet + pot)
?
At least if we completely exclude our current equity?
copernicus
Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 6:34 PM
QUOTE (AimHigher @ Tuesday, July 1st, 2008, 6:24 PM)

Where did I go wrong?
Isn't the percantage we need him to fold the result of: bet / (bet + pot)
?
At least if we completely exclude our current equity?
no, thats the equity you need to the river, including fold equity, to make a bet.
AimHigher
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2008, 10:53 AM
QUOTE (copernicus @ Wednesday, July 2nd, 2008, 3:34 AM)

no, thats the equity you need to the river, including fold equity, to make a bet.
Yeah, I understand. But how do I calculate the EV of a continuation bet?
copernicus
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2008, 11:07 AM
QUOTE (AimHigher @ Wednesday, July 2nd, 2008, 11:53 AM)

Yeah, I understand. But how do I calculate the EV of a continuation bet?
A CB is really just a semi-bluff and both are calculated the same way:
P(villain folds)*pot +P(villain calls)*[(
pot+bet)*P(you beat villain)-bet*P(you lose to villain)]
Note that P(you lose to villain) includes the probability that he raises and you fold, and that you never call a raise. Pure bluffs are just P(you beat villain)~0, so you drop the bolded term.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.