The Facts
$1/$2 NLHE Indian Casino in Miami, FL (9 players seated)

Florida has an interesting law where the min and max buy-in for all cash NL games is $100, this casino has a usual $1/$2 game, $2/$5 game and an ever present $5/$10 which at a $100 max buy-in can get shove-arific. I have traveled to Miami just to play at this casino. I am a TAG player Home Run Hitter and swing for the fences with my big hands and rarely just call a raise preflop.

As far as the table, NL cash games have only been allowed in the casinoes for the past year. The players were almost all loose passive players, who for the moost part could only read a board not a situation. I had been playing pretty tight preflop for the 2 hours i was at the table and had been card dead for the last 45 minutes not playing a hand i was not BB unraised.

I'm UTG, first to act, dealt AdAs and raise to $12 standard table raise being about $10 though most pots were limped around.

I get a call from 7 of the 8 players behind me including both blinds(yikes)

The Flop KdQcJd (double yikes)

Now i'm a thinking player and i know this flop hit at least two of the callers hard. I figure 2pairs, maybe a flopped broadway or King high straight. I'm ignoring the possible flopped set because I find it hard to believe any smooth calls in this situation. So I know I will get called and will have to improve to take down this pot.

($96pot) I have $78 behind

I know its obvious from my intro that I shoved here. My question is how bad of a play was that really? If I'm looking to stack up to take advantage of the passive play on the table and can count on either a 10 or an Ace on the turn or river as long as the board doesn't pair. As well as if I don't make on the turn then I gain another 3 outs to make a better 2pair.

Player two to my left smoothcalls and the player to his left goes all-in for another $200 causing folds around and a tank and fold by the smoothcaller.

All-iner has KJ and smoothcaller claims KQ. Have 8 outs out of 43 cards on the turn and backdoor flush and better 2pair draws and have built a $330 pot with $90 invested. So say the turn comes a 3 of diamonds I now have 2 Aces, 3 Queens, 4 Tens, 3 Threes, and 7 other diamonds for a total a 19 outs out of 42 cards if i get a favorable brick on the turn but I would more than likely have 12 outs, cant count on a turn diamond.

I thought about all of this during my tank time before shoving, even thought of the likely senario that more dead money gets caught in with donkey calls from K10, Q10, AK, AQ. Its possible, 7 callers of an UTG raise from a solid player? That is why I shoved, was it that bad of a decision? I cant seem to convince myself that it was.

You and everybody who got a piece should put his money in and hope he wins the poker lottery.

i would just fold that flop unless it was like $2 and i was closing the action.


if raising and getting that many callers is normal i would look to start limp-reraising all in from early positions.

Do this. You don't want to play these idiots post flop unless you have the nuts. When 3 or 4 people go to show down in every hand it's a sign that you need to push extra hard preflop. I would have made it like $25 or $30 pf with the aces. I bet you'd still get 1 or 2 callers almost every time. They will call off their whole stack pf with KQ sooooted.

Oh well, the whole point of me posting was to get a discussion going on the implied pot odds that this situation laid. I think my implied odds only coupled with my desire to stack up in order to push around the table made it a good move but it is borderline i'll admit. Yet all i get is what you should have done's. Anyway I won the hand when a 10 spiked the turn, blah blah blah... thanks for the lively debate guys

If their answers frighten you, you should cease asking scary questions.

And now this guy? The question was about implied pot odds, know anything about those? anyone anyone. I get what the one or two sane answers are saying. But one I can not limp raise serial limpers and I donot vary my preflop raises depending on the strength of my hand. The table wasn't always this insane, two three callers of a raise was normal here. Implied pot odds? anyone? at least tell me how you would play from the flop on, check fold, everyone?

We need a bit less than 1/3 equity to break even heads-up and a bit less than 1/4 equity to break even against two opponents.

If the villains show up here with AQ and AK, it's +EV to stack off on the flop versus folding. It's marginal against 2 players, though, so I agree with the idea that you should look for ways to change the preflop action.

Um. Are you serious?

Just go post in general if you seriously can't ask in a polite fashion for advice. I love how people think they're entitled to advice to their strict standards because they took so much time out of their "billionaire, playboy, I have 17 Lamborghini's and a 50 foot wide pool in the shape of Shaquille O'Neal's ginormus head and therefore I am better than you" lifestyle, that they imagine they're living in, to post here.




Don't help people like this David, please, for me

Seriously. Piss off mate.




O & btw ysap.




Do you really think these morons playing 1/2NL pay attention to anything? Let alone implied odds, bet sizing, tells, position, etc?

Thank you David, i appreciate you.

NonZero-- no I knew they weren't paying attention to any of that but I was and I think that what makes me a winning player in this element. I was hoping some people in this discussion group did though.

Excuse me for flipping out, understand I have no one available to discuss these hands with in the casino because they all have little to no experience.

No I am not holier than thou in thought, just when you ask a question What's 1+1 and get answers like the paper is white and the ink is black it tends to be frustrating.

I've played a lot of $1/$2 NLHE live in my short poker career and have found that in most cases if the guy thinks his cards are pretty no matter what you raise preflop he will call. I've tried the huge $30 preflop raises and decided to trust in my postflop play and reads and give myself enough play within my stack to take away some of the luck factor.

Yes, I know jamming was not the optimal play here. But simplified down, the play is comparable to pushing all-in with the nut flush draw against multiple opponents knowing you have to hit to win.

Or was it? Online odds calculator says I'm 40% heads up with my Aces against a flopped 2pair and 32% three way against 2 opponents with 2pair each. Given that there is already more in the pot than I have left behind than I made the correct play? Doesn't that mean that I have the pot odds to even call off all my chips if I'm bet into?

Dude, you played this hand like shit. Pushing there is mildly retarded. Going on about implied pot odds is even more retarded, since all your money is in the middle of the table already. Crying when people reply to your post telling you played it like shit is worse than all the above.

Good day.

I don't mind shoving. I prefer checking and assessing the action, but I don't think shoving is terrible by any means.