Hero is bb with Kh 10s
Villian is loose raiser preflop. Any ace, suited face cards, any pocket pair.

Utg limps, mp1 limps, villian mp2 raises, btn calls, sb folds, hero calls, mp1 calls

Flop: 10d 8h Kc

Hero bets mp1 calls, villian calls, btn folds

Turn: 2s

Hero bets, mp1 folds, villian calls

River: Ah

Hero?

I'm pretty sure I got him beat with my 2 pair, but would it be better to attempt a check raise or just bet out again, have him raise with maybe Ax so I can reraise? He's been known to call down all the way to try to hit something when he misses flops.




Hand #2

Hero is bb with J 10 off. Same villian in mp2

Utg/mp1 limp villian raises, c/o and btn call, hero calls, utg/mp1 call

Flop: K J 10 rainbow

Hero checks, utg/mp1 check, villian bets, c/o btn call, hero raises, utg/ mp1 fold, villian calls, c/o calls, btn folds

Turn: 7

Hero bets, villian calls, c/o folds,

River: 4

Hero bets, villian calls

I know I'm not supposed to show the result, but I was just curious if I had played this right.
Check raise okay on the flop? Better to lead out against this villian since his raise range is so wide?

Hand 1 I want to c/r the flop, because a bet doesn't protect my hand from any draws, and I'm not missing much value if it's checked around. If the turn is a blank, my bet now protects against some draws, and my equity edge is larger versus someone drawing. I hate the idea of c/r the river, because we're putting 3 bets in when we're behind and he reraises. I like to bet/call here on the river.

Hand 2 is almost identical, board is drawy, and we are oop. Our hand is weaker, because the board is lsightly more coordinated and we have bottom 2, which means it's easier to draw out on us.

I concur. Flop is begging for a c/r based on your relative pos. As played though, I would not expect villain to have Aces up too often, as he'd often pop the flop with something like AT, I suspect. b/c river, vs loose agg

and

1
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please.

With the first hand, I really only see 4 outcomes. Now, there's (as my math figures) $45 in the pot when the river drops.

#1- You bet straight out, he calls. A two-bet is won. $57 pot.
#2-You bet, he folds. A two-bet isn't contested. $45 pot (taking your last bet back).

$3- You check...he checks. $45 pot, nothing extra won.
#4-You check, he raises, you re-raise, he calls. An extra four-bet is won. $69 pot.
#5-You check, he raises, you re-raise, he folds. A two-bet is given but the four-bet is not contested. $51 (not counting your final uncalled bet).

There is also #6 and #7, which both involve the beting being capped and the pot growing beyond this, but let's focus on these 4 more likely outcomes simply becuase if he's willing to cap it, the chances you're ebat are much higher.

So, in order, your best result involves the check-raise, and your 2nd best is the simple straightforward betting you've done throughout the hand (which has been called).

It comes down to, I think, youre read on the villain. Will he go for the raise fi you check? Will he call with top pair on a normal continued bet? Basically.....is there any reason why you should sudenly switch tactics? You've been paid off throughout the hand

Personally, I go for the path of most benefit to me, not in this hand, but in general. I feel like simply beting on the river would do plenty. if he folds, I've concealed my hand strength. If he calls, I show down a good hand, which only helps my image at the table. In winning this pot, I also provide the idea of simple straightforward beting to those paying attention. If they get the idea that I'm slowplaying, or capable of it, it could cost me donw the line when I want someone to handle my aggression for me. If the table views me as simply a nuts and bolts player, I can get away with a few bluffs by repeating my aggression, and I can trap by forgoing it. Obviously there are other schools of thought, but here's mine laid down.

The extra $12 won by the check-raise here is less than the money I can win by playing agaisnt type later if I don't show it off now. If this pot was a lot larger......the decision would change.

welcome.

I think your post got interesting as it went on.
It's always good to have more thoughtful folks posting here.

well thank you....sometimes you have to take a pause from hurling squirells at cars to really think about the importance a check-raise vs future slowplay equity.

Wow, clearly this has been a leak in my play. Now I know better - these forums are a wealth of knowledge!

betting the river says you're not afraid of the A, so i think you're only getting raised if you're beat.

if you want to get in some extra bets, c/r probably works against a loose/aggro guy.
i agree with c/r the flop though.

i like a lot of your thoughts adamC, but i disagree with some of it.

yes, showing you're capable of c/r'ing may not allow you to slowplay later, but it may also win you several pots you wouldn't have otherwise won
if your opponents know you'll c/r with a big hand like this, you can c/r with draws and such and can pick up a few pots without having to make your hand.

also, how is this $12 different from another $12? you might not get the chance to c/r him on the river again, you midas well use it now. waiting for a better spot is generally a bad poker concept. there's good spots and bad spots and you can't pass up good spots and be a winning player. theres no reason to wait and use this play rather than use it now.
and the size of the pot should not matter when it comes to a decision like this. big pot or little pot, a $12 c/r is $12 c/r.

oh and you should've played hand 1 like you played hand 2, imo.

What if our c/r is 3 bet, can you fold ? (vs the type of player you want to c/r against)
I presume you don't like your hand after a 3-bet, due to the idea you say if we are raised, we are beat (but was that vs a general player and not an agg one?)

ty.

What I'm looking for in future slowplay opportunities is more than $12 to come through those pots.

There are so few hands I'm ever looking to slowplay in full ring LHE in a multiway pot, that I'm not sure this ever applies. Value, even with big hands, is generally the way to go. I'd rather play drawing hands (including hands like middle pair with an overcard and bd flush draw) fast than I would slowplay flopped sets and two pairs.

Now, if I flop a full house or quads, I may have to induce some action.

exactly

if this were no limit, i might agree
but we can only slowplay so much in limit, and we're almost never making more than a couple more bets when we do.


i'd think hard about folding to a 3-bet if we c/r the river. what can we beat?
my point of c/r'ing is that by leading out we show we're not scared of the A. so we make 1 bet
if we check he almost certainly bets, unless he has a small pair, in which case im not sure we make any bets anyway

yeah, I was wondering about the fine line of c/r vs just c/c because is it worth the times he just calls the c/r vs the times you have to fold to a 3-bet

It's worth noting, I think that one of the basis' of my strategies involves the idea that I'll be sitting at this table with many of the same people for some time. I tend to employ a lot of strategies as setup for later in the game, as well, some of which pay off, some of which don't, depending on the night.

I can see the merit of trying to win each hand as it is for the most value as well, simply a different strategy.

its definitely good to think about your image at the table and how it can affect this and future hands, especially if you'll be playing against the same opponents a lot. this will generally put you one step ahead of everyone else at the table

but it's hard to make more than a bet or two with a river checkraise, no matter how often you do it. also, a river c/r is not really a slowplay.

being aggressive has lots of other benefits as well. maybe someone sees you c/r a strong hand on the river, so you get a few extra showdowns when you check because they're scared of a c/r. or maybe you pick up a few pots by c/r'ing drawing hands against a weaker made hand.

check raising the river does not correlate to slowplaying a flop to checkraise the turn, either.

like i said, you have a good thought process and just by thinking about metagame, etc that puts you one step ahead.
but this is not a situation to be concerned with that.

Umm, live, 3/6 and you're trying to make up plays to set up later plays? Are your opponents really paying that much attention?

As a wise man once said, "think less".

I'm going to slow the thinking, until I get up to 4/8, lol. At least try it out for a while and see if my profit margin increases.

we're critical but we're just trying to help. dont get discouraged.
you have good thought process and are atleast aware of metagame stuff which is way more than most people

just find the right places to apply it.

and its good to have some fresh discussion around here.