PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q , Q .
UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, 3 folds, SB caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 6 , 5 , 4 (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 2 (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (16 BB) 2 (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

I feel like I semi-butchered this.

Given the pre-flop action I'm obviously scared of KK or AA here, but should I still be capping this flop/leading turn, slowing down to a turn raise? He could have a whole variety of over pairs really.

Unfortunately no stats because I just bought a new computer and I don't think I've backed up PokerTracker properly. Says I have a problem connecting to database. Hopefully get that up and running properly again soon.

I cap the flop because he can have 77-JJ as well as AA, KK.

If he still leads the turn, then I would just call down. If not, I bet. I'd have folded here if SB leads and UTG raised.

I can't see anything less than TT in SB's range given that he capped PF OOP vs an EP call, EP raise, and MP 3-bet. It's like like he's defending against a likely steal here.

When he donks flop, then 3-bets, I'd bet my bankroll he does not have 88-99. 77 would be crazy to cap PF, but if we consider the flop in isolation it's not an outrageous 3-bet.

lol?

I think a lot of people at these levels will cap with any pair pre-flop. Maybe not so much after a raise and 3-bet, but I wouldn't exclude 77, 88 or 99 from his range.

wtf would you expect him to do pf with 77 there?

Either call or cap... Neither surprises me. Wouldn't fold though.

Well, this would be a random, not total fish tard's thought process, imho. Omg 77 a pocket pair! Too good to fold, we can't do that. Ok, what's our next option? Call? I dunno, Howard Lederer told me to always be aggressive on Superstars, I guess that just leaves cap! Zomg all undercard flop, overpairs can't ever lose, bet/raise!

It's perfectly legitimate for them to think like this, and I think Frez is making a monstrous mistake the way he reads opponents hands.

At this levels people will raise you and cap pre-flop with A3s.
Happened to me yesterday...he got his flush by the turn and my aces cried all night long.

Just for reference.

That's a pretty powerful statement Zach. Are you talking about this hand specifically, or many others in general on these forums.

Granted, it's very low level. Still, it would take a total moron to play 77-99 it like that. If you think 77 is in the range, then you should include 44, 55, and 66. Heck, Hero is not in good shapoe against 22 or 33 either.

I think you made a mistake closing the micro limit forum Zach. I don't think anything below .25/.5 or maybe .5/1 is even worth discussing because of the moron factor. What's the point of even posting and discussing a hand if we say it's only .10/.20 so we can't assign villan a reasonable range.

Yes, this is why we play poker. Stop making the assumption that every player plays like you, imho.



Seriously?

At 30/60 I'd expected 44-AA to be in his range here.

If we think his range in a hypothetical hand is random, then we devise a strategy on how to best play our hand against that range. If we think his range is tight, we devise a strategy on how to play against his range. The moron factor is a myth. Learn to play poker against a variety of players. Get this "you can't play well against him because you can't put him on a hand" mentality out of the way.



I don't think I'd be able to back it up if I said in general on these forums, because I don't have the recollection of specifics, but this hand, and 'probably' an overall feeling of previous posts, but I think your hand reading skills are hampered by the way that you seem to think everyone should play well, or play like you. Just an observation.

Never said that. I agree - we like to play with morons. Just think it's hard to have the strat discussions.


I hear ya. You're definitely more right than wrong on that. I should not assume everyone is a solid TAG.

Why? What's the difference?

I play HU exclusively now, where a villain's range IS literally random. Does this mean we can't analyze and dissect the hands? I just don't follow your reasoning.

If we try to ask questions like "what is villan likely to have here" or "what does Poker Stove say our equity is vs his range" it is obv harder to do against a random range. Those are key components of a lot of the threads in the LHE forum.

Not saying it's impossible to have the discussion, just harder.

I think you played it well. I think Zach has been playing way too much HU if he thinks sb has 77 just as much as he has AA or KK here. If this were just hu between the sb and OP I think capping the flop is pretty bad, but with the presence of UTG I think its pretty close.

I think Zach's right about them having any pair here. From my observations playing these tables, players waaaaaaaay overplay their hands. They think top pair is the nuts and overpairs are unstoppable. For example, I had 99 vs one of these guys. I raise, he re-raises, I cap. Flop comes T9T giving me the full house. He leads, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap. Turn is a blank. Again, bet, raise, 3-bet, cap. River is another blank. Bet, raise, re-raise, cap.

I show my full house, he shows me pocket sixes. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the villain has any pocket pair here.

Where did I say this?

I said it was retarded to completely dismiss these hands are part of his range, I didn't talk anwyhere about waiting it.

FYP

Some people might interpret "as well as" to mean "as likely as"
Because he could as well have k6 os, for that matter - you know, if we are excluding weights.


*********************************************

Here's my opinion on what is going on here in the forum.

Zach is on another level with his hand reading and value maximizing skills due to vast experince in HU play and discussions and obsession with thinking about the game. Others who are not as skilled might be trying to latch on to those same thoughts, when really, they don''t have the intuition to play edges that thinly. For example, just because some of your opponents over play 67s preflop, doesn't mean you use that to justify ove playing your hands, etc.
At this level (hell all levels), you can give opponents wide ranges but you can't dismis how they are defining the hand for you. THat is to say, we shouldn't say both "they are passive at this level and they over play hands", depending on which one fits our needs. It takes a keener mind to distinguish the situation

^^^^^^

feel free to ignore this