Ok Villlain in this hand is a winning player..Here are his stats on OPR

Prizes, Profit, ROI: $10,810 $952 10%

I've seen him 3 barrel on 2 occassions preflop..First time he had qq, raised a co limper from the button, and bet 3/4 pots pretty much on all 3 streets on a 3, 3, 5, 10, 3 board, with his last bet being all in..Second time he did it he got raised on the river for a pretty big all in and folded..He appears to be pretty solid, adn will most likely be opening a wide range when folded to in the Hijack here..

That being said, what preflop line do you like best here? Do you fold (oop against a relatively solid player), call and assess flop (if so give your line for flop...Lets say it comes AK6 R, J97 2 clubs, bricks, etc) C/R a top pair flop, or reraise preflop and take the lead because we are ahead of his range and we don't want him punishing our BB in the future..Also give your flop scenario if you do take lead for a AK6 flop, etc

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t250 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

MP1 (t7155)
MP2 (t4113)
MP3 (t22288)
CO (t34692)
Button (t16595)
SB (t3950)
Hero (t28480)
UTG (t4360)
UTG+1 (t15616)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A , J .
4 folds, MP3 raises to t750, 3 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero

I dont think you can count on him raising too light here. Hes got some big stacks behind him, plus a SB that may be desperate enough to push in light if he reads Hijack as light. Reraise and your in for $1500 or more and most of the time OOP youre either folding the flop or taking a big risk with a CB or a c/c. Even if you hit TPTK you arent going to want to play a huge pot. I would flat it and probe bet a dry board, value bet an A or Jx. You might be tempted to c/r if hes aggro, but know that youre risking youre whole stack if you do.

I would call here and play cautiously on the flop. I'd rather reraise with something like 67s rather than AJo when it's time to play back against him.

If an ace falls, I go into check/call mode as it sounds like villain will keep firing. If a jack falls on the flop, I'd check/raise the flop since I'm now ahead of the other big aces. If a broadway/straight draw falls on the flop, I would try a check/raise on the flop and then check turn if he just called the raise on the flop. Otherwise, I let the hand go if I whiff the flop.

A solid tourney player could be making positional steals from the 'Hijack' position and if he had shown a betting pattern of doing just that (MP3, Co & Btn) I would use this hand to playback at him but without this info I'd have to just call and play it out on the flop. If you do playback, his next action should give you a pretty good idea of what he has - or didn't if he folds.

Even with antes AJ is toward the middle of an aggressive player's raising range which doesnt give you a whole lot of equity. If you play back at him he only plays hands that dominate you. I think it was TJ Cloutier said that AJ is on the edge and AT is falling off the cliff in a situation like this.

Your assuming a legitament raise and not a positional steal in which case the cards are immaterial. Certainly if the BB makes a playback and our villian calls or re-rasies back again, you have significant indication that he was betting a legit hand and not making a steal attempt and you proceed accordingly. If however our villian has established a betting pattern of often raising from the 3 LP positions, then a playback with AJo is plenty enough hand to do it with. Playback doesn't have to be crazy like all-in, but a 2.5-3x re-raise would get the job done often enough and still leave the BB with a healthy stack if it goes to flop or fold. Andy Block (Card Player Magazine), Gavin Smith, Phil Ivey and plenty other pros will and have played back without a hand if they're fairly certain there a steal going on so AJo would be a monster when there's a read on the pf raiser.

Without that read - just call and be careful - just like TJ said.

Postional steals (as opposed to short stack FIV pushes) arent made with ATC, they generally have some equity value if called. AJ is in the middle of most player's total range, including "positional steals". I m surprised that Andy Bloch would play back here, it is totally contrary to his Full Tilt article. Do you have a particular CP article of his where he says he would./did without a read on a particular player?

Oh, you HAVE to have a read on the LP raiser - ESPECIALLY if you're going to try a re-steal without a hand (ATC). In this case AJ isn't really a re-steal but rather a playback against what could very possibly (and if there is a supporting bettung pattern then VERY LIKELY) be a blind steal from position. If MP3 does call then BB still has a decent hand to play with AJ but in a re-steal with ATC BB will have to get real lucky on the flop, C-bluff or ck-fold.

And YES, ATC will do for a positional steal - the hand is immaterial as this steal is being made using math, position and knowledge of your opps. +90% of the time if played back on, a positional steal will fold but the rest of the time he'll usually be calling as an underdog with the right odds and stack to absorb the hit (and hate doing so as it reveals his theifery!) Of course a player making positional steals does sometimes and often enough actually have a legit hand when that playback/re-steal attempt is made - the icing on the cake!

Sorry, I dont buy that you'll find ATC steals with stacks this deep, it just isnt done without some hand equity.

OPs read is that villain will open with a wide range when checked to. Andy Blochs open raising range here is 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A4o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo about 1/3 of all hands, which is pretty damn wide.

AJo is a 57:43 favorite to the river, but given that you're OOP I dont think thats a call.

Did you change your mind about calling then?

Anyway back to positional steals and Andy's open raising range. I'm not sure which reference you're using for Andys range however in "Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide - Tournament Edition" Andy's "PLAYABLE HANDS BY POSITION table (pg 68 if you have it) has MP3 raising top 32% with antes and 24% without antes but please note that these are "PLAYABLE" hands and not STEALS. It's not a steal if MP3 raises with AA (one of the top 32%) but it IS if he did it with 7-2o!

On page 92 Andy is writing about "PRE-FLOP PLAY IN THE BLINDS AGAINST A RAISE"
"If you are in the big blind, assuming your opponents are raising by reasonable amounts, you should be playing a lot of hands. First, you already have one bet in the pot, so you don't have to call the full raise. Second, unless there have been limpers or it has been reraised, your call will close the betting. Third, you want to make it unprofitable for late-position players to steal your big blind with any two cards."
"So forget about playing half the hands your opponent would raise with. You should play every hand that the raiser could have in that position and maybe a few more"

Note the bolded (by me) third point in the first para where Andy refers to the BB "playable" hands vs a "steal from a LP player". I think we're coming to odds talking about apples and organes. A playable hand does fall within ranges for various positions while a steal is an outright or semi bluff from position. ATC will do and I've taken thousands of pots with pure junk, table image, stack management (theirs and mine), aggression and guts - the cards are totally immaterial if they are junk to begin with since I don't plan to play beyond the flop anyway. If I can't steal the blinds outright I get one more shot on the flop if and when it's checked to me - then I'm done and looking to fold without revealing my LP steal as a steal!

No I misspoke about calling. I meant raising him.

Re the rest, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. With these stacks I just dont see a steal making sense, and I never see stealing with ATC making sense except when its stack driven, which it isnt here.

I don't mean to be rude, but LOL@MP3 raising with ATC in this spot.

I pitch it here, against a decent player i think it's possible to turn a profit by calling, but it's a pretty small one even if you can imo.

FWIW, I wasn't suggesting he is raising ATC here in late middle position..He is most likely raising a lot of hands with value or implied odds, because he has shown that hes at least an aggressive post flop player, (I won't say "good" quite yet). It would be pretty dumb though to raise ATC here as blinds are relatively meaningless compared to stacks..However, he probably thinks he has a post flop edge on most players at our table (there was a total of 3 winning players at it, me and him included), thus his open raising range is gonna be fairly wide

Btw, i'm guessing you took the buy-in to the mil instead of taking the T dollars?

No, Sheiky was responding to AR who thinks the raise could be an ATC steal here.

Fair enough. It wasn't my intention to hijack this tread but that certainly seems the direction my original point has taken the discusssion on stealing. Positional steals is an advanced concept in tournament poker most often utilized by the more aggressive - quasi-maniacs - but even the less advance or aggressive tourney players have come to understand that you have to steal blinds if you're going to be a winning player. Positional steals (PS) should not be equated to short stack management where it's survival or die by pushing all-in whereas PS is a large stack management tool - Gavin Smith called it "Welding a big stack" in an article for Canadian Poker Player last year. PS are made with comfortable sized stacks, with standard sized pf raises and with no danger of crippling yourself. It is calculated bullying at it's best if done within certain guidelines. It's largest tell is it's betting pattern but only an observant player will likey spot it while the rest may just get suspicious. Playable hands (as per Andy Bloch's ranges above) and premium hands help disguise the this tactic since if openly accused of stealing a PS player can violate the 'No Show' rule to enforce the idea that he's just on a good run of cards by showing a legitament raising hand. An area of tournament strategy and tactics that is often overlooked, ignored or simply not understood (at least well enough) is stack management. A lot has been written about short stack management but not that much about mid and large stacks - how to protect them and how to use them most effectively. PS is a mid-large stack tool and if you're not using it you're not as effective as you could be.

I just checked Full Tilt Poker/Tips from the pros and there is very very little on playing big stacks but quite a bit on short stacks. Gus Hansen had a bit but not specifically in regards to PS. I guess the assumstion is once you get a big stack the rest is easy - yet how often have you seen a guy scoop up a few pots into a big stack then piss it away through overaggresion, loose play and so on??

Then don't be rude and explain why you don't think MP3 wouldn't be raising with ATC in this spot! "LOL" isn't very enlightening or helpful for anyone trying to understand your 'point' if you had one!

I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this. What we disagree wtih is that a positional steal is as loose as ATC. I have never seen advice anywhere that recommends PS's (as narrowly defined here) without a hand that has reasonable equity if called. Relying entirely on fold equity from middle position when you can be expected to be called or raised at least 1/2 the time (if they put you on normal raising standards) is spewing chips.

Ok, my point-

Raising PF isn't a black and white line between 'position steal' and 'non-positional steal', i hate it when people say stuff like 'So i was in the BB, and the button raised right, and i shoved cause i thought he was on a steal ya know?' because in reality there is no such thing as 'being on a steal'.

There's a continum, a contimum of hand ranges that you will raise in certain spots/conditions etc. UTG you raise a tight range because that you believe will be profitable to play at the point in time you raise them.

In later position, you open a wider range because you can now play more hands profitably.

It's not just like 'ok so i'm in the hi-jack, i think this time i'm gonna make a 'positional steal' and raise without looking at my cards because this one time doesn't matter, i'm making a positional steal right? My cards don't matter!' The fact is, they do. There is very very very rarely going to be any spots in a tournament where you can profitably open ATC, and this is no where near one of them.

There's no reason MP3's range should be a wide as ATC or even close to it at this stage in the tournament.

There - and doesn't that feel a lot better than simply "LOL"?

I think I've pesented sufficent arguements on PS (as I've learned to use it) so going into the details of it's theroy and guidelines isn't going to change anyone elses mind about it and it would take a few books to cover it all. And I certainly don't recommend anyone trying ATC steals without some understanding of when and how to use it and some guidlines to prevent stack damage! If applied as discribed by Sheiky above then ya it could prove unprofitable and ill advised but with the right knowledge it IS VERY PROFITABLE and used a lot more than you might appreciate.
However, no matter to what degree anyone will disagree wih the points I've made one thing is for sure and I think will be agreed to by anyone who followed this tread. The next time a PS is exposed (something to be avoided if at all possible) and you look at 93o from a LP pf raiser and you say "How in the hell could he raise with that shit?" you're mind will becon back to this tread and realize what just happened! Then you'll say "That theiving SOB! I wonder how many other blinds he stole from me with that crap?"
You know there's a reason the Btn and CO are called the "Steal positions" and how do you suppose MP3 became to be called the "Hijack position"?
And NO Sheiky, when you're playing the man, the cards DO NOT matter and I know you know this because you C-Bet - don't ya? For Example, you pfr with JTo, get one caller in the BB (maybe he has QJs) and the flop comes up 8-3-2 rb - BB checks, you C-bet and the other guy folds! Happens all the time. You think he folded to JT or b/c the flop missed him too and it was just to expensive to play any further? If the cards did matter here, you would have checked it thru but you played the man, your position and understanding of leverage to win with just (A)TC - and the worse hand!. Add in the fact that "There's no reason MP3's range should be a wide as ATC or even close to it at this stage in the tournament" only adds to the bluff's deception and FE value b/c only hands good enough to call will while the rest fold and you steal!
But you do have some grounds with "at this stage of the tournament" if BB=250 is still early and most of the very loose calls are still prevelent. This tactic to be successful often enough has to be employed when the blinds get too expensive for very loose calls and multiple limpers. If that were the case in the OP, then a PS might not be on or even in the pfr's arsenal of plays - quite apparently it's not that well known!

if i have a solid table image, i think this is a spot where i'd pull out a stop n go on any flop that i miss and possibly 2 barrel on good boards (something like K 2 4 9) if he calls my flop bet. i play pot control on every street if i hit (unless i hit huge of course).

of course it's risky with that being a heavy reverse implied odds situation if you try to play AJ for value, but if you have some reading skills you should not have a problem with laying down the best hand some times versus calling down with the worse hand when he'S got you on A 4 8 like boards. he's also going to let you know if he has you beat on J 4 T like boards.

I raise here like, 0% times, at least not as a value-like "play back" raise.

You really don't have to go into so much detail on what is a pretty simple concept, the concept of 'stealing' blinds isn't exactly revoultionary nor hard to grasp.

And yes, your cards do matter. If they didn't, then you would raise every single hand from any position, cause hey, you're ALWAYS going to win it with a C-bet right?

Wrong.

The amount of equity your hand has is always a factor because c-betting does not win the pot every single time, not even close to it.

One example, you raise KQs and the BB calls, the board comes J 8 9 with one of your suit, he checks you bet and he calls, you're bet has failed to win the pot. However, against his calling range you have somewhere around 20-30% equity depending on his range of hands. If you raise 72o in this situation and bet the flop, your hand has virtualy no showndownable equity, a massive difference.

Add in the fact that "There's no reason MP3's range should be a wide as ATC or even close to it at this stage in the tournament" only adds to the bluff's deception and FE value b/c only hands good enough to call will while the rest fold and you steal!

Sure, and then i'm gonna think 'Keep raising 93o 250BBs deep buddy' because him raising trash hands in spots that don't warrant it is going to be profitable for us.

What about Snyder's positional strategy articulated in PTF? My memory may be failing me since I read it a few months ago, but doesn't he advocate raising ATC from Hijack to the Button, not as a stealing play, but to build a pot that you can then take away postflop with position? In fact, doesn't he prefer Hijack for these plays because it strikes the best balance between good position and disguising your raise as not an obvious positional raise?

You're absolutely right. And just as I don't believe in limping aces from UTG so do not include it in my warbag, you should not and most likely will not include PS in yours. There's more than one way to play this game and one way isn't necessary better or worse than another b/c in poker it always "depends"!!

PTF is ok for general concepts but for specific strategy I think its awful.

It would be interesting to categorize Annette_15s deepish stack plays in her blind tourney win (the essence of ATC!) between pre-flop raises by position and post flop plays after seeing weakness.

Now that I look at PTF again, I'm reminded of the fact that it is designed for what Snyder calls "fast" tourneys, so the tourney posted here may not apply. The $4.40/180, which annette won blind, is probably at the faster end of Snyder's spectrum.