Middle of a $3.40 STT turbo.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t1955)
Button (t3730)
SB (t1351)
BB (t5748)
UTG (t1125)
MP (t1091)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, 4.
2 folds, Hero raises to t1955

Not sure what to do here with almost exactly 10BB. Is this too borderline?

This is standard IMO..I'm jamming here everytime

Yup. There's no other way to play this with your stack and your position.

Standard

Quick answer, yeah you can shove. But it is not automatic at all. There are three shorter stacks out there. Anyone calls you, you are at best in a coinflip for your tournament life and could be crushed. Also if you have been active lately and shoving that gives you less fold equity as they could be calling you lighter. I have absolutely NO problem laying this down. Obv not deep enough to set mine and the goal here is to win. Cop I'm sure will tell us what to do, but the more I think about it, I am folding. I think I would rather have two broadway then this hand.

BTW, I know you said it was the middle of a 3.40 turbo. Single table? Is this everyone that is left?

You can't fold here, you can't standard raise here, you can't limp here, all that's left is push.

Based on the chip count, it was a STT, 6 left. I'm not folding this here. Maybe just maybe if I was first to act and I've been overly active lately, but not in this position.

Why can't you fold here? Cuz it's a pair? I don't like shoving this hand into the only two stacks that can knock us out. 44 is only a 57% favorite against any single random hand. I could be wrong based on ICM - really have to get End Game Tools or something.

EDIT: Do you shove QJcc here? that hand is over 60% to win against a random hand. Or QTcc is over 59%. I don't get excited for my tourny life with a mini pocket pair.

Because the odds are, you are a favorite here and you have a favorable spot to shove.

I'm not happy if somebody calls, but if you are not opening pots with pairs, shorthanded in a turbo, one off the button in an unopened pot, I think that's a bit nitty.

Just my opinion though.

I can't argue until I go home and finally get End Game Tools or whatever. Or until Cop comes and tells me I'm wrong. I need the numbers here. The numbers will say that it's not right to take every marginally +EV situation in a SNG. Granted I don't play turbos. But taking the risk to get nothing when I don't believe that your tournament equity goes up significantly in this situation just isn't worth it.

And here we are a dog to just about any calling range that I come up with - but I could be tight on this. But if I am right, then all we are hoping is to risk all our chips to pick up 300 which does not significantly increase our chance of winning.


EDIT: BTW - I completely expect to be wrong here. But I am a nit.

You could be right. I'm interested to know the math on this. I'll see if I can find something to run the numbers.

And could we limp for $200 and try to pick it up on the flop if checked to us? This could be weak, still don't like shoving. How about mini-raise? Try to pick it up pre and if not we can still try to take it on the flop.


I don't know what is right here. I HATE open limping as everyone in this forum knows.

I'm not too sure how to use SNGEGT, but it looks like a slight +ev play to shove, and I mean slight. A -ev to call, obv.

borderline push gaining .2% of the prize pool over folding. I would go and go with a min-raise up front, the min-raise attempting to weed out at least 3 players so were not fading 9000 overcards.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, who needs all da coo tools anyways?

Actually I do. But my gut was telling me not to risk my life on 4's here.

.2% is like $30 chips. Ship it

Given the BB is the big stack...and 44 is = to bottom pair, I would make a standard raise. A standard raise is likely to get a marginal hand to fold out of position. Shoving broadcasts the marginal value of your hand.

If by standard you mean 3xBB then we would be committing 600 out of 1955 of our stack. Leaving us really short if we have to fold to a push. I don't like committing 30% of our stack here.

Your point about committing too much is a valid point.

I would consider my moves in this order:
1. Standard Raise
2. Fold
3. Shove

My table image could change the order...but a shove would not be consistent with a tight table image. BTW, 1,300 left would not be too short a stack.

If you flopped bottom pair, would you shove?

I know that is not a clear comparison, but it is consistent with the mentality.

In short, I do not like to shove less than 3/4 handed with low pairs (under 99). I would rather coin flip with KQ suited than 44.

If we're going to use the go-n-go, why not go with a slightly bigger PF raise to ensure sufficient weeding? A raise to 500 with a call creates a 1300 pot on the flop, and about 1400 left in my stack, whereas the minraise has me pushing 1500 into a pot of 1100.

I would never raise/fold here. The only reason to make a smaller raise would be to pull a go-n-go, as cop suggested. The idea is to fold a hand on the flop that might be inclined to call PF. For example, BB might call my PF push with something like AT, which puts me into a race for my tourney life. But if I raise, he calls, and then I push the flop, he is much less likely to call unless he's flopped an A or T.

My move is still shove in this, only because it's such a standard play in a micro sng at this blind level. I wouldn't standard raise, for reasons Poker Addict mentioned.

Go and go is a move I would have not considered, and I don't do enough of. I have to try this more in this spot.

Do we really want to be AIPF with 44? We have plenty of chips to find a better place to shove.

Exactly, I was trying to point out initially that shoving is wrong here. The go and go is the only way to go if you play it. Min raise to $500 pre - but I think that in these tournys the min raise accomplishes the same thing while conserving chips.

It is a toss up between go and go and fold preflop. I don't hate either.


Sorry Jeff, I completely and totally disagree (but don't take it personally). Standard is not reason enough for me. I think it is spewy to shove here unless you have good reads and are very certain that the big stacks behind you are folding anything except ultra premium hands to a shove. The numbers don't give us enough of a equity boost to make this a consistently profitable move.

And yes, standard raise is not an option.

Sorry jmbreslin, I didn't comment on your first statement. You said you wouldn't raise/fold here? If that is the case then shove is a much a greater move to give you more fold equity. EDIT: I understand the go and go. But if you raise small and then get shoved over, you call?

min raise/fold to shove => fold > shove > raise/call


EDIT: I say => cuz it is so close to me. Min raise is slightly better I think.

Wanna e-fight?

The reason I say it that way is shoving isn't going to be perceived as weakness here, as it is pretty much a standard play. You will find people shoving strong hands too, only because the blinds get high and it leaves people with awkwardly small stacks. I think this is going to be profitable long run, granted you haven't been shoving like a maniac and people want to look you up (big stack). This is key because image is important.

Probably not much difference. I said min-raise to get some people out and give caller worse than 2:1 on the flop (1.75:1). I only looked at the 3x raise which gives more than 2:1. The raise to 500 might weed out one more person pre-flop and gets it up to 1.93:1 on the flop....but the one you might weed out is the flush or straight draw who might call with small -EV.

Of course the min-raise could be read as stronger than a standard raise, looking for a call.

Edit: if you get shoved back at PF the min-raise saves 100 chips if you would consider folding, which is very plausible, since youre about a 2:1 dog to a shovers range.

welllllllllllllllllllllll..... I'll e-fight you but only if you are in the same state you were Friday.

Here personally I would rather shove Soooooooted broadway cards then 44. It has more equity against a caller. And as I am sure you have noticed, I don't have a problem picking my spots if I don't think the hand holds up well. I think we are turning 44 into a semi bluff here by shoving which is fine, but then I am not shoving this because of the hand value but because of the shove itself.

Yeah, this or fold.

I'm not shoving 4s very often. In my experience 10 BB six handed is plenty to work with. Also, I expect to get called A LOT of the time which is great when I'm shoving with maybe 99+ but my 4s are just too small to feel good about it.

Also, F*ck turbos:)

QFMFT!!!!!


That is exactly why I hate them. I am a NIT and dam proud of it. I prefer to have a little more control over the spots I pick.

Yeah, I guess the raise/fold isn't as bad as I initially thought. But why would you think I'm a 2:1 dog against a shover's range? SB is short and might be prepared to get it all in with a wide-ish range, and the bigger stacks might smell weakness in my minraise and think they can reraise me off the pot. Although a shove (or big reraise from a bigger stack) might indicate 55+, I think you'd also have to include a decent Aces and some Broadway combos in a the range. Although it wouldn't be that many, now that I think about it - maybe A9+, KQs, KQ, which puts me at a big dog to about 10 hands and a coinflip fav over perhaps 7 others. Okay, so the minraise/fold makes more sense than I thought.