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Full Version: Qq On A7k Board Against Check Behind.
FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > Tournament Play
TravisG
Player was pretty tight agressive(11/9/2.1) so i decided to play a little postflop instead of just pushing (i knew that he would have position on me, but that was pretty irrelevant in this situation) I probably have a very loose image as i picked some good hands the past few rounds and raised numerous times.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

BB (t7347)
UTG (t2644)
Hero (t4880)
CO (t3905)
Villain (t4735)
SB (t1995)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q icon_suit_spade.gif , Q icon_suit_club.gif .
1 fold, Hero raises to t300, 1 fold, Villain raises to t835, 2 folds, Hero calls t535.

I planned to just check fold here.
Flop: (t1820) K icon_suit_spade.gif , 8 icon_suit_club.gif , A icon_suit_heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks.

Turn: (t1820) T icon_suit_club.gif (2 players)
Hero ????
Sheiky
Checks
simo_8ball
Villain is either trapping, or he will check it down with JJ/99/whatever.

He never folds better hands and he never calls with worse.

I probably just 4-bet preflop though.
Berwatchey
uh check unless you know for SURE this guy was raising with a hand like jacks or 9's.

you are behind here way more likely than you are ahead. unless he re raised with a smaller pp. it's actually possible he has a set.

or had a q or ak, hit his hand, knew he was playing online and prolly got called by a hand like a 6 and has them way crushed and is politely handing you a noose to hang yourself with.

either way your not likely to win this pot at this point. good hand, bad flop, worse turn.
copernicus
Against a TAG player I agree with flatting pre, and folding to post flop aggression. However, he's checked the flop with position. The board only is showing a gut straight draw at best, so yes, he could be slowplaying an A or K, but he also may have TT, JJ and fear a check raise. Deeper stacked I might take a stab on the turn, but with these stacks its still check/fold. If he still doesnt bet then a river value bet may be worthwhile if he does have TT, JJ and thinks you may have a lower pair
Sheiky
Shove pre acctualy, the stats you get in tournaments are basically irrelevant unless you play a lot with someone a lot, which at this blind level i don't think you have.
simo_8ball
QUOTE (copernicus @ Saturday, April 26th, 2008, 6:21 PM) *
Against a TAG player I agree with flatting pre, and folding to post flop aggression.

You do mean folding to postflop aggression on this particular board, right? Or did you mean in general?
copernicus
QUOTE (simo_8ball @ Saturday, April 26th, 2008, 12:20 PM) *
You do mean folding to postflop aggression on this particular board, right? Or did you mean in general?

this board
TravisG
I ask because i put him on something like JJ / TT. I don't like to give up pots, and checking the turn just invites him to a bluff. With his image, i can't call any reasonable bet from him on the turn. So if we would be deeper, what would you do? I know by betting we're turning our "made hand" into a bluff, but deeper i think it would be a good spot to turn it into a bluff. I don't get value out of any worse hands anyways and by always check/checking i just give him his 2 free cards while i earn nothing if i improve (unless he checks the turn again if he has AK), so just taking the pot from him should be more +ev then just checking it down ( note that this is only the case if he does not slow play AA/AK/KK).
Sheiky
QUOTE (TravisG @ Saturday, April 26th, 2008, 9:13 PM) *
I ask because i put him on something like JJ / TT. I don't like to give up pots, and checking the turn just invites him to a bluff. With his image, i can't call any reasonable bet from him on the turn. So if we would be deeper, what would you do? I know by betting we're turning our "made hand" into a bluff, but deeper i think it would be a good spot to turn it into a bluff. I don't get value out of any worse hands anyways and by always check/checking i just give him his 2 free cards while i earn nothing if i improve (unless he checks the turn again if he has AK), so just taking the pot from him should be more +ev then just checking it down ( note that this is only the case if he does not slow play AA/AK/KK).


You think he'll bet the turn with JJ/TT after checking the flop?

I don't, i think once he checks the flop and you check the turn he's most likely going to take the free ride to the river and hope his hand is good.

Why should taking the pot from him now be +EV is he folds all worse hands and calls with all better ones?

I think this is a pretty bad spot to bluff unless you're confident in your read of him and can shove the river if he calls the turn, which is pretty risky and probably not profitable anyway.
Aces Rule
QUOTE (Sheiky @ Saturday, April 26th, 2008, 1:10 PM) *
You think he'll bet the turn with JJ/TT after checking the flop?

I don't, i think once he checks the flop and you check the turn he's most likely going to take the free ride to the river and hope his hand is good.


Skeiky sums up my ititial thoughts after he checked thru the flop. So half the time I check the turn hoping to ck it down but the other hlaf I'd be inclined to bet 600-800 into that pot to see if I can take it on the turn - it might look like a strt8 but more likely my checking my ace-x to the pf re-raiser on the flop and now making up for not leading out b4. If he's not trapping with AK then he's folding what ever else he has (except TT which he would re-r) - and I don't think he's re-raising pf with QJ or slowplaying a set of 7s. Either way with this bet I don't think we're going to see the river.
TravisG
QUOTE (Sheiky @ Saturday, April 26th, 2008, 11:10 PM) *
You think he'll bet the turn with JJ/TT after checking the flop?

I don't, i think once he checks the flop and you check the turn he's most likely going to take the free ride to the river and hope his hand is good.

Why should taking the pot from him now be +EV is he folds all worse hands and calls with all better ones?

I think this is a pretty bad spot to bluff unless you're confident in your read of him and can shove the river if he calls the turn, which is pretty risky and probably not profitable anyway.


by the way lets say the turn is not a T but a 7.

another by the way this is a $44 tournament.

so it depends on the read. how often does he have AA/KK/AK here and how often JJ/TT?

and yeah if he just calls the turn im confidently shoving any river.

so lets change the conditions a little bit. if i know he's going to check behind AA/KK/AK only like 15% of the time, the turn is an easy bluff right? giving him free cards at a 2 outer is senseless, as villan's the only one who gains ( the turn is still not a T but a 7).
simo_8ball
QUOTE (TravisG @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 2:09 AM) *
by the way lets say the turn is not a T but a 7.

another by the way this is a $44 tournament.

so it depends on the read. how often does he have AA/KK/AK here and how often JJ/TT?

and yeah if he just calls the turn im confidently shoving any river.

so lets change the conditions a little bit. if i know he's going to check behind AA/KK/AK only like 15% of the time, the turn is an easy bluff right? giving him free cards at a 2 outer is senseless, as villan's the only one who gains ( the turn is still not a T but a 7).

WTF?

Name one better hand you can bluff here.

Name one worse hand that will call a bet here.
copernicus
QUOTE (simo_8ball @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 11:39 AM) *
WTF?

Name one better hand you can bluff here.

Name one worse hand that will call a bet here.


JJ. You only asked for one!
simo_8ball
QUOTE (copernicus @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 7:50 PM) *
JJ. You only asked for one!

dry.gif
AimHigher
QUOTE (copernicus @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 6:50 PM) *
JJ. You only asked for one!


Ahhhh, but he also said name one we can bluff! icon_cool.gif
copernicus
QUOTE (AimHigher @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 2:44 PM) *
Ahhhh, but he also said name one we can bluff! icon_cool.gif


That was a non-sequiter. Theres no reason to turn this hand into a bluff.
AimHigher
QUOTE (copernicus @ Sunday, April 27th, 2008, 9:47 PM) *
That was a non-sequiter. Theres no reason to turn this hand into a bluff.


I totally agree, although I had to Google non sequitur because my Latin is sketchy. icon_biggrin.gif
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