True, I could have come out with something on the river (which I didn't b/c the river was a blank for me). One of the most frustrating things in this game is when you have such a beautiful starting hand turn almost worthless. The funny thing was I was so annoyed that I still called the bet on the river despite having nothing but 2P!

LOL, this sounds awfully familiar...

I've realized my major problem adjusting to limit: I've become a calling station because the bets are always small and the pot odds are always irresistible. It lures me into chasing non-nut and one-way hands, which ends up costing me money. If I'm going to play with a wider hand selection and not nut peddle (though nut peddling is exactly what Hwang suggests at low limits), then I have to be prepared to let my marginal hands go. I don't have this problem in PLO8 because it's much easier to fold marginal hands to pot-sized bets. Hopefully I've just closed a massive leak in my FLO8 game...

You deserve a good flogging if you called a river bet with 2 pair on a 3 heart flop that was seen by 5 players. Look at that in print. Realize the pain of it. Don't do it again. It's so obvious in retrospect, but you have to be disciplined on that table. Even moreso, on a board similar to that with a boatload of low cards and a flush out there, never bluff, it's to easy for villain to call you either way. Also, never fire a flot bet on a board with two low cards if all you have is air. The only exception is if one of the low cards is a deuce. You can fold out A2 type hands without much resistance, but if there is an ace of the flop, they've suddenly got a high they want to peel a card with, even if it costs them a bet.



It's such an over-hyped mantra, but: "Play for the whole pot" is a very powerful philosophy. Especially if you are nuclear aggressive like i am, you are going to need multiple ways to get at least half of a pot to stay afloat (dead money almost always > rake).

And you'll die by the hands of the rake waiting to nutpeddle. At your limits the most evil you can probably drum up is turning two low draws/made lows against each other if you hold the high nuts. They go crazy for it almost everytime. I usually dread having A2 in a multiway turn/river because someone else almost always has it and is going crazy raising himself into 1/4 utopia. Then it's a battle of wills. I refuse to fold even though I may end up losing some money *just* to make sure that idiot isn't rewarded for playing badly.

Yeah, that's probably a leak on my part.

hello everyone

what does an open shove preflop mean in nl o8 heads up?

Believe me, I knew there was a 0% chance I was getting any part of the pot. I was just tilting at that point - I think I called to punish myself more than anything else.

in pl i call this the game of chicken.

guess what, after playing with certain good players over and over again when i shove my chips in with a naked low i win now. they know that im more than happy to drive the car right off the cliff or whatever.

it means they need to poop, really badly.



Bah. Punish them. Never punish yourself. I've seen your HH and strat posts in the past. I know you pay attention to detail. I know you have all the capabilities in the world of understanding *every* decision on *every* street is starting from scratch. Challenge yourself. We are all guilty of it (you should see the garbage I can float in stud hi).

It's *hard* to scoop a pot. Think of how hard you fight to win 1/2 of a pot where the dead money barely cancels the rake. Saving bets is earning money. You earn just as much folding a naked A3 in early position as you do for hitting naked A3 in the blinds for 1/2 of a primarily 2 person pot.

It also is a good argument for aggressively taking the lead and firing: *any* pot you take down before the river is a scoop, and that's a lot of profit in your pocket. There are times when calling/chasing is justified, but it's still mostly better to lead.

Oh, and if you get bored one day, see how many river bluffs you can pick off when the flush/low bricks out and they fire instantly into the pot. You can win full buy ins that way

Nice of you to say, Cappy. Unfortunately this game is driving me frickin' insane. I have 3 tables of .10-.20 FL open tonight and I can't complete one damn draw. Down $ on all 3 tables. I was marginally profitable at PLO8 but since making the switch to limit I just can't seem to put in a winning session.

Sigh, as I was saying...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K, 2, 2.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3, T, 7 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) J (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) A (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results:
BB has Qh 5c Kc 2h (Low: 7, 5, 3, 2, A | High: flush, ace high).
Hero has As Kd 2d 2s (High: one pair, aces).
Button has 2c 9s 3c 3s (High: three of a kind, threes).
SB has 6d Ac Ad 7c (High: three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 11 BB.

Someone please end my misery, please.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, 2, 4, 7.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6, 8, Q (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (9.25 BB) J (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks. [missed draws 78, jbreslin 0]

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results:
UTG has 9d Kc 6d 7s (High: two pair, kings and sixes). [who in the hell limps UTG with this garbage, and why do they get rewarded????]
UTG+1 has 5c 4s Ad 3c (High: high card, ace).
Hero has As 2h 4c 7h (High: high card, ace).
MP2 has 5h Ah 2s 5s (High: one pair, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 9.25 BB.

i overplay my aces. horribly. i raise preflop. i bet the flop. i bet the turn. then i check/call most rivers. more often than not somebody has just given me like 75% of a buy in. if the board looks scary i will let the turn check through to keep the pot a little smaller.

it is VERY profitable.

its funny, lower stakes players who are calling stations actually don't call big bets on the river often enough with one-pair type hands. however, they love to call with things like 35xx on an a78jt board. when you move up higher that stops though. that pattern of raise bet bet bet that destroys calling stations who are going to fold the river when their draws miss stops becoming effective.

in summation i think its important in this game to pay attention to the manner of peoples looseness rather than like in holdem where you can just say ok this one is loose this one is tight.

------------------------
on a side note...over on 2+2 in the omaha8 forum none other than ray zee himself has just put in his input into a couple of threads regarding plo8. the couple of sentences he wrote are probably worth paying for to read. just a little heads up.

Yes you can, and I'll show you why:



BB is chasing the nut straight, on a heart board with 4 players in the pot. He's drawing at 4 (probably) dead aces for any shot at the low, and drawing at 6 outs (hearts kill his hand) for the high.

Button is playing bottom set, and playing it passively at that, allowing both hearts and lows to draw at him as cheaply as humanly possibly.

SB played aces beyond weak, the whole way.

There's a ton of information in these hands to be deciphered, and used against your opponents. These are the people that will be handing you their hard-earned money. Understand who they are, and why they are supplying you profit. And capitalize <evil cackling laugh>.

Is he an idiot? Really? Look at the hands surrounding you. Imagine both a. ) the overall strength of his hand if aces are split amongst the field, and b. ) the implied odds of him hitting some form of middle-card straight/full house. He's got 3 people ready to cap every street and he's getting 1/2 of the result That's insane implied odds.

That said, K679 is a half-a$$ed way to accomplish my points A. and B. If you are telling me his hand still isn't overly strong w/ aces being split, I'll go ahead and agree. If you are saying he'd be better off with having 4 cards between 3 and 8 to use to hit a straight, I'd agree with you also. He'd be much better off with, say, QJT8 or 3457, but his heart's in the right place. At least with the high hand all you need to do is make the high hand. With the low, you need to qualify, and then still make the best of the lows.

But to casually toss him aside and then complain about how you never win big pots with A2xx, well... that's just being lazy and unimaginative.

I actually fold out a majority of my dry Aces when the fields to see flops have tended to be 3+.

My favorite quality of AAxx hands is if I have a 2 or a 3, I've got a much better chance of having a lock on the low, and I don't usually hate having an Ace come out on the turn or river to "counterfeit me" nearly as much.

I do play inside-out a lot: I raise A23 a heckuva lot more than I raise aces. I enjoy getting credit for "having aces" in pots I raise where I can take down dry/high flops for a single bet because I "have aces" when I'm actually holding A348 or something of the sort when that flop comes KT3. Works best playing against non-regulars, because people I play with a lot never expect to see me with aces, like ever, so I lose all that deception, and limit my bluffing abilities greatly. Which bleeds back into table selection..

One of my favorite aspects of o8b is the guy flashing AAxx as "the losing hand". I've never once been surprised that he held AAxx, I'm only saddened by the fact that after his PF raise, his aggression until 3 lows came out, and his check when draws hit on the river, that he wouldn't think I ALREADY KNEW THAT. C'est la vie.



The thing I miss about the lower limits is the people who call down with *only* 35xx and absolutely no way to win the high side (gutshot or otherwise).

I don't pay nearly enough attention to people's overall looseness.. I just usually make notes on people who actually fold their SB for 1/2 a bet and their BB for a full bet. I classify them as "pretty disciplined".

One other random thing I've been good at lately is, after helping felt a couple weak players, LEAVING THE $@$ TABLE when a couple of regulars I have notes on jump into the game in their spots. If I could go back in time and relay a message to a younger Cappy, I'd say "Being up on a table doesn't count as a profitable situation if the reason you are up on the table is gone x2 and replaced x2 with turnips you'll have a devil of a time drawing blood from!"

I'm playing mainly horse now, at the .50/1 and 1/2 levels, and O8b against non-traditional o8b players has been a new experience, let me tell you. I need a couple more weeks for serious impressions and questions, I'll run 'em by the posse soon enough.



Say no more, logging in to lurk as we speak. Ray Zee is my hero.

And since I love rambling late at night, let me add this:

Jm, trust in yourself. I play my style (drunken monkey is my best description), Anti plays his style, BDC plays his style, etc...

My style won't work for your game. Anti's style won't work for your game.

The reason I single you out and give complex thought processes isn't because I feel you need "instruction" or (god no) "correction", I'm just trying to convey how I think about situations and hands.

Understanding multiple ways to look at each scenario is one of the most important concepts of poker. Understanding why opponents do what they do is the key to taking their money in the long run.

Mr. Checky McFold, who falls somewhere between a loving guru and the drunken uncle at family gatherings who tells you your a f*ckup and will never amount to anything, used to give spot on advice in the mixed game strat section daily...

on how he'd play a hand.

Based on his style, his table image, his courage, and his bankroll. He's an absolute genius in all the games, and boy do I wish he'd wander into this thread and put a boot in my a$$ and explain to me why I'm an idiot.

At first I dismissed a lot of his advice as "I ain't playing like Checky. I'm no maniac". And I kept breaking even, or booking small wins. Then I moved to the darkside and unleashed my inner Tasmanian Devil. Now I book big wins (and losses, of course!) And I've finally grown to be comfortable in my shoes: No matter how uncomfortable I am at times with my style, I know for a fact that poor sap in the pot against me is 10x as uncomfortable unless he's holding the nuts, or mutliple draws to it.

Doyle's strategy of taking their money when they surrender it to you, and then "gambling" with them with "their" money is simply the smartest way to play poker. When it fails, it hurts like a mutha. When it succeeds, its unbelievably profitable. People don't want to get involved marginally in pots with you, and the blinds don't have position on you.

We are all dealt the same crappy hands, same good hands, etc. It all breaks even, minus the rake. You need to be earning money without a hand, you need to be saving money with the second best hand and no real draws. And you'll never be successful in poker if you need to hit flops to win money. It's not video poker. You take their money. You miss the flop, they miss the flop. You bet. They fold. You miss the flop they miss the flop. You check, they bet, you raise, they call. You fire a turn blank (hi card/ board pair, etc) OOP, and they fold quickly. It's that easy at times.

Next time you are on the CO with A348 and a player limps in from MP, realize that you are about to enter a pot with little to no chance to win the high half, and you will need 60% of the board to cooperate, and probably with a deuece, to even get half. Unless you go nuts. Playing cautiously might win you half. Playing maniacally can win you a lot. Raising in position allows you to inflate the pot with a good hand, and allows you either a free turn card, or the knowledge that someone is ready to bet into a PF agressor. And if you are re-raised PF, be ready to outdraw Aces.

Aight, I sleep now.

If you are wondering who's smarter, me or Antistuff, remember this: he gets rakeback (tilt), I don't (Stars). Stop wondering there.

i have a huge reply i am going to write to this, as things like this are taking up a lot of space on my mind lately (how two people can play very differently and both still win the same amount). im just tossing this in for filler and anticipation.

Here's why you want the low, too when you make a full house and get mad aggressive all the way:

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, T, 3, 2.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3, A, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (8 BB) 6 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Kd 9d 9s Qs (High: full house, nines full of threes).
Hero has Ad Tc 3c 2s (High: full house, threes full of aces).
Outcome: UTG wins 10 BB.

Understand why I'm not upset to lose so much money here? Or am I an idiot?

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4, 3, 8.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4, 6, 4 (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4 BB) K (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds.

River: (11 BB) T (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 5s 4h 3c 8d (High: three of a kind, fours).
UTG+1 has Ac 2s As Qs (High: flush, ace high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 13 BB.

do you really need to call that river?

anyone like this line?

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5 , 3 , A , 4 .
UTG raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2 , A , 4 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 8 (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Ah As 5s 4h (Low: 6, 5, 4, 2, A | High: three of a kind, aces).
Hero has 5h 3h Ac 4d (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, six high).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.25 BB.

short stack? sure I'll take it from you

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , 7 , T , 4 .
UTG calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) T , Q , 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, SB calls.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5 (2 players)

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc 7c Td 4d (High: two pair, queens and tens).
SB has 5h Kh 3c Jd (High: one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 6.75 BB.

You're never going to convince me that playing that hand from UTG is +ev. It's not half-assed, it's whole-assed. He basically hit his one-in-a-million chance of that hand turning into a winning hand in a multi-way pot. 99% of the time that hand is going to hit a high that will lose to a better high and/or end up splitting with a low hand. I'm all for mixing it up now and then with the kind of implied odds hand you're talking about, but playing this particular hand from UTG is downright terrible.

Cappy, I appreciate you taking the time to help me better my game. Same goes for the other 2 or 3 guys who frequent this forum. You make an interesting point about different styles - what I've noticed is that when I try to hard to adopt the styles that other people are advocating in the strat threads, I run into trouble. Drunken monkey is not a natural fit for me but what I'd like to do is figure out how to use what I learn about your styles and strategies to improve mine.

I am starting to think, though, that the best way to be profitable at the limits I play is a more disciplined, ABC style. This doesn't mean nut-peddling, just disciplined and straightforward. These are tables full of people who play with VPIP's of 50 and PFR's of 0. Fancy plays work just about as well at these tables as they do at $1.20 NLHE SnGs.

I plan to experiment with FLO8 a bit longer but will most likely return to PLO8. I ended up salvaging last night's session with a small win thanks to a couple of big pots on one table near the end, but to be honest I didn't much enjoy the hour or so I played up to that point.

It doesn't look any better than my tilt call on the river w/ 2P after my low got counterfeited. Cappy, 'splain yourself.

I'm probably just raising the flop because I don't want another diamond taking my high half. Make them pay for it.

ahh but what kind of hand can I put UTG on when leading out on this flop and the CO flats behind? (and I got the BB to put in one more so if I'm getting 1/4ed)

.10/.20 FL (full ring) I built up my roll by doing nothing more than betting big draws agg. and nut-peddling. It's boring, but it works. I did it for like 3-4 months str8. It is profitable

AA is right up UTG's alley and CO could be on something like A3 with a good diamond draw. Right now you have a lock low and the current nuts, so don't you want to charge sets and flush draws to try to take your high half? And the risk of letting BB put in another bet is that you could be letting in another hand that could outdraw you (say he has two mediocre diamonds and is the only flush draw out there - he may fold his draw to a raise). If you're on a bare nut low then I can understand keeping the pot multi-way (and smaller) in case you get quartered. But since you also have the current nut high, don't you want to protect it?

yes, I've been back and forth with this one prob should've posted it by itself. (WA/WB situation? in a sort of kind of way) I don't know the way it worked out I think I got about as much value out of it as possible. I raise and everyone folds that kind of sux too? or I raise and get called by wheel/flush draw and no one else

Having trouble locating these posts - which threads specifically?

the one about three betting preflop and there were two others i can't remember. just look up his username and check recent posts.

I do. Low missed, I'm only losing to a full house or the backdoor spade madness. With the pot odds, and the chance he's firing a missed low or missed straight. Yes, his turn actions make a spade flush certainly a good possibility, but folding that river is beyond weak and will cost you money in the long run. I got trip 4s without a decent kicker, but I'll beat AAxx and everything else I mentioned above.



Keeping that many in the pot on the flop is a good thing considering you were bet into. A raise might thin the field, something you don't want when you got the nuts. Even if you are splitting the nuts, you want as much dead money as possible.

You also don't fold diamonds out on that flop, and you *need* to raise the turn to make a diamond draw pay the absolute max, possibly even fear being capped, so you played the turn *real* well in my opinion;.

And obviously, firing the river when checked to is a complete no brainer.

I like it on all streets. You get the gold star, timmy!

I agreed with that setiment in my post already. I was talking concepts: playing high cards *or* straightening cards from EP for a limp has some great implied value. He had some straightening cards and a king in that example, which isn't great implied value. He had the right idea, but a hand to weak to implement it: remember, if you have say 5689 w/ 2 diamonds, and the flop is Q67 with 2 diamonds, you aren't in as bad a shape as you think: you have a ton of straight outs, and you have 2 blockers against the flush. A non-diamond 4,5,8,9,T gives you a great hand for playing lows against each other,and charging anyone with diamonds a huge price knowing you have some serious diamond blockers.

In that same example, if you have KQJ9, you can get away from that flop pretty easily. That's where your good disicipline allows you to avoid the negative freeroll.

That's what we're here for, to convert people to the dark side.

Now take the next step: they recently opened .10/.20 and .25/.50 HORSE tables on Stars. You can dooooo it!

Even when your nut high is vulnerable?


Is this a FL vs PL strategy? That is, waiting until the turn to raise when you can charge a higher price instead of raising the flop?

Your nut high is vulnerable, your nut low is uncounterfeitable. Once you've created a large field by being passive on the flop, you now have a guaranteed 1/4 or better of a large pot no matter what card comes on the river. The fact that a diamond didn't come on the turn makes your hand that much stronger,and we will bet and raise no matter the action is coming towards us. Damn the torpedos!



Both. On the turn, your raise gives them worse pot odds, and on that turn, they have a lower % to win on top of it. Just like in hold em: you shove on a 2 diamond flop, you get called by 2 diamonds and brace yourself. You shove on a turn after a 2 diamond flop with a brick, and most sensible players will give you the smaller win uncontested, and even if a bad player comes along for the ride on the river, we only have to fade 9 outs (or less, if you have blockers).

That's for PL.. In Fixed limit, you simply charge them the whole way as much as you can. Fixed limit is always designed around having to show down the best hand, never forget that. You get no money in the pot once the river bricks, you make all your money on the flop and turn.

That's why it's called "gambling".

Dammit, I should pay closer attention...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, 4, A, 2.
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2, 7, T (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8 (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero only now realizes his 2 was counterfeited on the flop...

hehe.. You'd be surprised how often your good for 1/4 to 1/2 here.. You'd also be surpised how often that $@#W$ river is a 4.

Turn bet cost you a chance to show this hand down, but I bet you already knew that. Even if another 2 on the river takes the high for you, this is a pretty easy fold.

If that turn is an 8 of hearts, its a whole new ballgame, because you can re-raise and possibly knock out another A4, and any heart and any 3 is a great card. Any 2 or any Ace may also get you far more of the pot than you expected.

As for this particular hand, the 8 doesn't complete any realistic draws. The clubs are the scariest thing out there, but the A3 and club frush could be brutal in the combined hands, and the A3 of clubs in one hand is the worst case scenario: Always easy to fold when a villain only needs 2 cards to scoop you. Much easier to make some hero calls when someone else needs all 4 of their cards working to stymie you.

Oh my god, it happened...I finally got the river card I needed! I'm so happy (relieved) I could cry...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Omaha/8 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3, 2, A, A.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8, Q, 7 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 9 (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls.

River: (14 BB) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

Results:
SB has Qd Jc 6c 5s (High: straight, nine high).
Hero has 3d 2h Ah As (Low: 8, 7, 5, 2, A | High: flush, ace high).
Button has Ac 2c 2d 7s (Low: 8, 7, 5, 2, A | High: one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 17.25 BB. Button wins 5.75 BB.

For the second session in a row I've played a good hour and a half on 3 FL tables and walked away with a profit of just about 2BB. I'm not sure this FL structure can hold my interest over the long term. So far I'm not seeing a good reason to play FLO8 over PL08.

FL is a bit more about safety and mechanical thinking, anyways.

Spread it out to a couple .10/.20, .25/.50, .50/1, and 1/2 tables and get a 7 or 8 table session going.

Hell I used to have 3 or 4 tables of .50/1 and .25/.50 going at once while I was putting girls on stage. The ultimate beauty of the flop game: easy multitabling.

PL may be your better game, anyways. Just trust in yourself and your abilities and play what you want. You can look me up on Pokerstars 4 straight nights and one night I'll be in a couple 4.40s, the next night $2/4 o8b, next night .50/1 horse, and last night you'd have seen me yelling at IntelliPoker Avatars in 10 cent turbos. It's all a gane after all, no matter how seriously we try and take it. Nutbarring micro turbos is a good way to get off tilt, too.

Trying one of those dime turbos for the first time as we speak. Been brutally card dead but still able to make it to the top 1/3 so far. Getting desperately short, though...

Quoted the important part.. Now ask yourself: could I have played a couple hands better? Could I have run a whole lot better, too? Now the important thing: Could you see yourself playing considerably worse? Could you imagine yourself running considerably worse? And factor in how much LO8 you've played overall. I think you're putting too low a ceiling on your potential. If your complaint is that it isn't glamorous, I'll give you that. But it is pretty easy money. Here's the next secret: The guys at .25/.50 aren't much better *at all*.

Do you feel you are risking your full $10 when you sit down? at any point? Can you understand how I was able a while back to sit at $2/4 with $350 in my online BR? Making a bad river call at .25/.50 is, like 50 cents.. at .10/.20 it's not even a quarter.

Feel the power of the darkside.



If you are nitting up in a ten cent turbo, you are *totally* missing the point. Ace-rag needs to beat King-Eight, and multiple times.. Get to shovin! Remember your ultimate goal: to get a Trucker in Des Moines to break his keyboard, and all for the low, low price of ten cents.

Ran a little fun experiment tonight.. It was a sloooow night for tables, and since I only had one .50/1 horse table going, I went ahead and fired up all the o8b tables I could find.. At one point I had a .10/20, .25/50, .50/1, 1/2, and 2/4 table going at once.

Using the .50/1 as the barometer, I won like 5 buy ins. I ran pretty well, but my biggest stack (buying in regular on all tables) was actually the .50/1 table. I ran it up to $60 from $20 and never dipped below $55 the whole night.

I didn't really hit my share of miracle cards, but I don't think I missed a single value bet in a scoop or 3/4 situation all night.

The biggest revelation of the night was at .50/1, where I haven't played in months (HORSE doesn't count, different table dynamic).. PF Raises were thinning fields, I was taking the lead all over the place and stealing a ridiculous amount of pots. Even when people started to figure out what I was doing, they'd be unlucky enough to play sheriff on boards I'd hit *hard* and I'd win the absolute max on each street. Obviously I got some cards along the way, but it was an absolute wild session. If anyone was being naughty with PT, I must have showed up seeing at least 50% of flops with an insane raise% and VPIP. Granted I changed gears (and with 5 or 6 tables open, you *are* always in a pot, just not all 6 lol).

I guess what I'm saying is: I may actually move down limits. $2/$4 is a chore, and there's plenty of regulars I keep an eye on and approach with caution in marginal spots. But if I can continue to be hyper-aggressive and turn a large profit at even .50/1, I think I need to look into it.

I'm actually kinda bummed about stars opening the floodgates on .25/.50 Horse and Razz tables, because it's really killing the .50/1 games.. There used to be, like, 4-8 .50/1 Horse tables going at night on Stars.. Now there is ... one.. maybe two if you are lucky. That's simply not cutting it right now for me.

I definitely see your point and I have full confidence that I could be a winning FLO8 player over the long term but it just seems like a much less interesting and much slower grind. Your point about the limits is well taken, though. With disciplined play it's virtually impossible to lose big in FLO8 so one can afford to play out of one's roll. That might make the 1BB/HR profit a bit more tolerable.


The funny thing is that I basically folded my way to 86th place. I just have to make the mental adjustment to the loose play since it's virtually impossible to get FIV in these. PF play is basically 85% limps with 15% pushes, nothing in between. I have to force myself to put my chips in the middle in far less than ideal circumstances.

Cappy, here's a question for you: which do you prefer for PLO8, full 10-person tables or 6-max? The thing I find annoying about 6-max is that it is difficult to maintain a full table - there's often one person sitting out, and then someone leaves, and pretty soon you're playing with 4 people.

Last night I had one of each open at .02-.05. The 6-max afforded more opportunities to play aggressively, but I did lose 1/2 buyin. PF raises weren't really thinning the field as I'd like, stealing pots postflop wasn't as easy as I'd like, and I didn't really hit any big hands. Hand selection was probably still a bit nitty, though.

On the full table I ended up playing very few hands and never really got a chance to try the aggression with the larger field. Full tables seem to be more appropriate for straightforward nut-peddling, while 6-maxes are better for aggression. Is that consistent with your experience?

Just open 2 tables of .10/.20 and 2 tables of .25/.50.. If you can average 1 BB/hr in each, that's substantial profit. It's easier to fold crap like A479 from MP1 if you're barely scrolling over to the 4th table to see it.

And about the word "discipline".... Good cash game players have one thing in common: a complete and utter disregard for the value of money in the heat of battle. I wish you could have seen the amount of times tonight I dragged a 3way pot on a 247 flop with KQJJ. Running into the nuts costs you one small bet on the flop. You win 3-4 small bets for not running into the nuts.



hehe.. Yeah, I'm estatic when the pot hasn't been re-raised by the time it gets to me on the button. Treat it like PLO: suited connectors win some big, big pots. And 89 sooted is very, very, live against two all-ins.

9th place out of 360 pays 50 cents. 50 cents. Damn the torpedos, accumulate some chips.

(I've cashed (for min) once in about 15 of these.. I'm an expert.)

I prefer LO8. That's my bread and butter. I don't like playing 10 person PLO8 at all. Bluffing and repping hands is expeeeensive.

More thoughts later, I'm going to bed.

You just got royalllly screwed


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero ($5.85)
Button ($13.83)
SB ($11.83)
BB ($3.17)
UTG ($21.87)
MP ($4)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5 , A , Q , 5 .
2 folds, Hero calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.20) T , 2 , J (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB folds.

Turn: ($0.35) K (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.1, Button raises to $0.2, BB calls $0.20, Hero raises to $0.5, Button raises to $0.8, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.6, Button calls $0.40.

River: ($3.35) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.85, Button calls $2.85.

Final Pot: $9.05

Results in white below:
Hero has 5s Ac Qc 5c (High: straight flush, ace high).
Button has 3c 6c 9c 4c (High: flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins $9.05.

I agree 100% with this statement