Hand 1:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($49)
MP1 ($84.55)
MP2 ($53.65)
MP3 ($118.10)
Hero ($54.35)
Button ($8.75)
SB ($73.20)
BB ($107.20)
UTG ($28.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.75.

Flop: ($5.25) , , (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.5, MP1 raises to $7, Hero raises to $20, MP1 raises to $89.3 (All-In), Hero ???.


My read on this villain was sorta, i dunno, my personal feeling was passive, but poker trackers numbers tell me different (passive preflop, but an aggro tard on the flop/turn)

16.27/3.35/5.25 AF

(6.00 flop, 3.0 turn, infinity sign river)


Should I have just smoooth called the check raise and re-eval'd turn?


Hand 2:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($69.50)
CO ($56.85)
Button ($168.35)
SB ($46.35)
BB ($54.35)
UTG ($83.80)
UTG+1 ($54.25)
MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($22.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with , .
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, Button calls $1.75, 2 folds.

Flop: ($6) , , (4 players)
Hero bets $3.5, CO raises to $7, Button folds, Hero raises to $18.5, CO raises to $62.1 (All-In), Hero???


This hand, I felt he was more aggressive, especially in position. Uhm... Hard to give what my description is. Typical overnight player, loves to try to push people around, but Im not sure it extended to all ins.


24/10/2

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($21.55)
Button ($60.95)
SB ($49.75)
BB ($19.25)
Hero ($51.85)
UTG+1 ($66.50)
MP1 ($160.60)
MP2 ($35.80)
MP3 ($45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1.75, MP3 calls $1.75, 4 folds.

Flop: ($6) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $3.5, MP2 calls $3.50, MP3 calls $3.50.

Turn: ($16.50) (3 players)
Hero bets $9, MP2 raises to $30.55 (All-In), MP3 folds, Hero ???


Didnt really have a read on this villain. I had been really aggro at this table preflop, was raising and reraising a lot of hands. Villain is 24/2/1.4


I would say that overpairs are my least favorite hand to play in hold em, so any advice on how I can play these situations better would be appreciated. Thanks

Hand 1: That limp/call is more or less a sign of players set mining but we can't exclude the possibility that he has QJ/KJ/AJ(maybe) and with those PT stats I call. Against some villains this is a easy fold. Flop bet should be $4.50-4.75

Hand 2: I think he could have a hand like AdKd/4d5d/sets/A9. Basically villain is either ahead or he's got a lot of outs. When you 3bet on that flop you need to go more, something like $24-28. Flop bet should be $5-5.50

Hand 3: I think this is a 9 way more often than a 4. I'm pretty sure you're ahead. Again, I think flop bet should be $4.50-5 and turn bet should be $14.

Hand 1: EDITED
You played it like a missed AK or something. So it's probably a good move for him to try and push you of that with AJ.
Hmmm edited... on 2nd thoughts I think I call here. Hes probably not giving you credit for aces.

I Fold.

Hand 2:
Again, the contibet is not repping an overpair and his first reraise could have been done with any two cards. The second reraise all in can be the diamond draw or a lot of hands have you crushed.

I Fold.


Hand 3:
As this is a fullring perhaps limping with TT UTG is ok.
Again, the contibet seems weak and screams "raise me".
He could have 88 or JJ and wants to prevent you from drawing to the fatal overcards.

I Fold.


I am such a folder. I have a tight image and can usually get away with a missed AK by firing pot-sized bets.
What factors speak against higher bets on each flop here? Do we want to extract value? And if so, from which hands?

If I am called for a PSB I am most certainly dead and move on, that is except for Hand 2 with the draw, where I would bet a non diamond & non overcard-flop.
Am I too tight?

Hand 1 is weird because of conflicting reads (Hero's read and stats). Based on stats I think villain does it with J also and so it becomes call. If J is not part of his range then it's a clear fold.
Board: 2s 4d Js
Wins Ties Equity
56.63% 0.02% 56.65% ( AdAh )
43.33% 0.02% 43.35% ( JT, As4s, 5s6s, 22,44 )

Hand 2
4bet allin shows super strength and should be respected until solid read says otherwise. Range of super draw and sets have you crushed. Fold

Hand 3
It doesn't seem that villain has FH here: why slowplay flop but not turn IP? Based on the read villain has on you I think it's a call as his range includes 9 or PP and you have at least 50% equity against that range.

Please stop 3 betting flops without knowing what you're gonna do if you get shoved on.

Okay, so when I get raised on the flop when I have an overpair, is your suggestion to call and re-evaluate?

This one liner quips are great and all; but I already realize Im probably misplaying some of these hands, so thats why I'm posting.

Even the 'good' posters are doing this now. weee

One more thing, actually. My generally thought is, if I 3-bet and get repopped on the flop, and its relatively dry, I'm going to fold. My reason for posting these is they're relatively similar (except for hand #3), and I'm trying to find out the optimal way to play these. I don't know if 3-bet/fold is the best line here. Obviously reads are important, but, for example, a lot of people are saying to all in the AA hand but fold in hand #2. Where my feeling was 'limp/calling oop and then check raising and trying to get all of your chips in on a jack high flop is usually a set' and 'calling a raise in position and then being agressive on a 9 high flop isnt quite as strong'. Those are just MY personal general thoughts. That doesnt make them right or wrong, thats just my thought process.

Am I the only one that thinks his betting sizes are a little low?

Hand number 2 and 3 are both small, they should have been 4.5 and not 3.5. Probably doesn't make much difference in your eyes, as most people will say 'bet 5 or the pot', but I just normally do a 3/4 bet pot. But as I found out when I was going over HHs with Simo, there are certain stretches of time where despite my general rule of 3/4 pot, I often go lower than that for absolutely no good reason. Guess I need to get a helper program to make my bet sizes for me since I'm too blonde to do it on my own.

No, I mean that IF you're going to 3-bet (which is fine) then you need to make up your mind BEFORE you 3-bet that:

1. If he shoves, I'm going to ________
2. If he calls, I'm going to ____________ on the next street
3. If he folds, I'm going to collect his mobnies. (this was the easy one, so I filled it in for you)

I just assume that if I 3-bet that #3 is going to happen 100% of the time. Unfortunately it only happens about 2.3% of the time, so the other 97.7% fo the time Im suffering from a bad beat and Im dazed and confused.

I didnt used to 3-bet on the flop like this before. Normally if I had an overpair and I started facing heat I'd go into check/call mode and try to show it down, but I've been told that thats being too much of a sissy. And my wife already thinks of me as a sissy, so I'd like to prevent the online poker community from thinking the same.

Sorry to hear that.

Depending on your opponents and their tendencies, combined with their views of you and flop texture, you're often fine just 3-betting and calling the shove on a lot of boards.

I'd probably shove hand 1 and fold hands 2 and 3.

Hand 1.

You have a big pair and he just pushed all in. He is acting like he has a set or two pair. Or is he aggro and stupid enough to rereraise all in with a flush draw or a staight draw? Note the min raise on the flop usually means strength, especially from OOP. So, if I respect the guy, I lay it down when he pushes. If I think the guy is really an aggro loose tard, I call the push as I already have almost half my stack in the pot anyways and I have the biggest possible pair.

Note your reraise on the flop is pretty aggro as well. If you are up against a decent opponent, there is nothing wrong with just calling his min raise and reassessing on the turn. I think this would be my preferred path against someone I respected.

Hand 2

Fold. You have are OOP with a medium pair and have been rereraaised all in. Your tens are either no good or quite likely will be by the river. He has either got a bigger pair, a set or some kind of draw. I think you overplayed the tens when you reraised the flop out of position. I would just call the flop min raise and bet about $10 if no draw completes on the turn. Otherwise I am checking it. If he is still making big aggro bets, I am laying it down.

Never go broke with just a pair.

I'm not saying this with regards to the 3 hands posted, but just in general - is this proper cash game thinking? And I'm not talking about overvaluing hands - the fact that I don't just say 'lawlz overpair ahhh eeen' i think proves that Im atleast on more than one level of thinking - but in a cash game, if I feel I'm ahead, with one pair, or just high card, shouldnt the money be going in?

Why are they low? With the size of his stack, big bets are going to pot commit him very quickly. He wants to get value for his hand, but does not want to necessarily build a giant pot. So a 1/2 to full pot bet should be fine. He is in this range every time.

The rereraises are in the 2.5 to 3x range, so I think the bet sizes are fine.

Why would you feel otherwise?

If you have some kind of read on your opponent, then by all means, put the money in. Especially with the aces. But you really have to feel your opponent is a loose donk and would try to push you off your hand with a lower pair or some kind of draw. If you know nothing about your opponent or you know him to be a good player, then you really have to think about putting your whole stack in the middle with one pair.

In the case of the tens, I think you really overplayed them and given the action I would be very reluctant to put it all in.... unless the opponent is a super donk. But in most cases you lay these down to the push.

The aces are a little tougher call and you are more justified putting it all in, but still this hand got way too aggro on the flop for me to feel comfortable pushing in.... unless the opponent is a super donk.

In general, you rereraised both times with these big pairs. Why not slow down a little and just call the min raise and see what the turn brings? And with the aces you have position. Why not use it? Too many players nowadays try to get their chips in quickly when they should play the whole hand... flop, turn and river.

Calling the minraise is not being a sissy. Unless you know the opponent is weak, let the hand develop. Pot control is important when there is a good chance you are behind.

Yeah, that immediately stuck out. If you repop, know why you're doing it and have a plan. If you don't have a plan, how are you going to select betting/raising sizes? Potting it or just clicking randomly?

I go broke on all 3.

edit: and I'm only a bit unhappy about calling all in on hand 3, but then I'll hit a 10 and do a dance.

I think that while there has been a lot of good posts (and I appreciate them all) so far, this one really gets to the crux of my issue with overpairs. My old method (as I stated earlier, make my standard bet, and then if I get action, basically try to to just check/call or do whatever I can to have a showdown, but make it relatively cheap) was designed because I felt that often I was either WA/WB (as I suppose is the case with overpairs) and I didn't want to chase him off, but I didn't necessarily want to build a 200bb pot with the losing hand.

So, why did I start 3-betting? Well, I'm trying to be more aggressive in my game. Now, I understand that just 'blind aggression' is dumb, so I have to have a purpose. Well, in a lot of my hands where I'm raising in late position with a hand that isn't junk but isnt premium (for example, opening with KQ or QJ in HJ) I'll get called by the button. When I make my c-bet on the flop, a while ago, this bet would have won the pot a majority of the time. But with everyone and their brother out there c-betting, players have gotten, well, I don't want to say better, because their moves are pretty transparent, but they've gotten trickier. They'll start raising my c-bets in position, maybe with ATC (i dont really know, because I obviously don't want to go to showdown with KQ on a 6 high flop). Anyhow, the point I'm trying to get to, if I think button is just using his position to move me off a hand, I'll occassionally 3-bet his flop raise, if my read is that he's weak and just making a move (i obviously don't want to throw away money here).

So if I'm doing this move occassionally with air, I have to do it with overpairs at times, too. Thats my logic, anyhow. I try to make my plays look as seemless as possible. Raise before the flops are always in the same manner. I try to keep my flop bets and my 3bets in the same size.

One other problem I have with my old method is this: Keeping the pot small by check/calling only works if my opponent cooperates. The advent of the bet pot button has made it hard to keep pots small. If I raise PF and get a caller, we have a $5 pot. Now I bet $3.5 and he raises me to $10. I call, the pot is now $25. Assuming we both had $50 to start, well, now we're down to $37.5 Awkward stack sizes, because if he bets pot, or close to it on the turn, I now have to basically call any river, seeing as how I'll be getting like 6:1 on a call and I'll have (presumeably) an overpair still.

Now in hand one, maybe just smooth calling would have been best. Maybe someone went retarded with AJ but the way he played it, I put him on a set, or what have you.

Give me 4-6sooted any day, amirite?

Sorry to go off topic, but
Well done.

You raise a good point with this paragraph here. I would say in general I prefer playing flop poker. But I think, and I'm sure this is something that every player has dealt with at some point or another, you start to get gunshy. You don't remember the successes you've had when you played a hand correctly, and not as quick, you just remember the ones where something went wrong, and you just start trying to force everything into the pot at once. I prefer to play my big hands quick, but I often lose sight of the fact that an overpair isnt really a big hand when you're facing a lot of action.

Let me ask you a question, though. This is another overpair, OOP. I don't get played back at at all, but would you have slowed down at any point? Or do stack sizes dictate this?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($40.75)
UTG+1 ($37.40)
MP1 ($9.75)
MP2 ($39.85)
MP3 ($33.30)
CO ($19.05)
Button ($213)
Hero ($136.10)
BB ($33.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, A.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $3.50, CO folds, Button folds.

Flop: ($9.75) J, K, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, MP2 calls $7.

Turn: ($23.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $19, MP2 calls $19.

River: ($61.75) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $10, MP2 calls $9.85 (All-In).

Final Pot: $81.45

My initial reaction is that the turn bet was too big, but maybe not by much.

I'm not folding and I want to charge a draw with the Aces on the JK8 flop. I'm fine c/cing the river, but that's about it.

I think betting the flop and then c/cing the turn + river with an overpair is ok, but usually just when you have a reason to believe you might not have the best hand. Sometimes you just have to lose your stack when you have an overpair, it happens and it's why you have a bankroll to play within.

"If you have him on a set, why 3 bet"


Sorry, I think my wording was poor. On the Jxx flop, if he has AJ, but went retarded with it with the check-raise then the push to my 3-bet, I wouldn't be able to put him on AJ, I'd have to put him on something that beats me (set), so I'm losing value by 3-betting and giving him the chance to represent something bigger than he has. I was agreeing with you that my aggression was too much and could have cost me money from a weaker hand if someone decided to go bonkers with it.

if you go into check/call mode because you're scared of monsters you'll only win small pots with your big pairs

Ok, well now you have aces again here. Aces are a premium overpair that are hard to get away from. They are much better than tens and you can be more aggressive with them. The way your opponent played limping into the hand and then calling the flop and turn, I would put him on two pair or a straight draw. I can visualize KJ here or QT. I think the turn bet is kind of big. It pretty much pot commits both you and your opponent. I would probably ratchet it down from $19 to something like $10. You are still charging him to draw but not risking so much if he already has you beat. You might even want to check call here. Aces are very tough to play with someone calling big bets after the flop. If you think you have the best hand, but are very unsure , the idea is to lose the minimum. Unless I have reason to think otherwise, I will usually go all the way with them if I am heads up, unless the board is very scary, i.e. connected, suited etc. Or, if I know my opponent and he convinces he has me beat, I can lay them down. In multiway pots it is easier to lay them down as well when multiple opponents get aggressive. But heads up with a fairly non scary board like this one, I would probably slow down on the turn and call the river. So what do we get out of this? Aces as an overpair are much different from tens. And, maybe try to slow down with them heads up when you get heavy action. And lay them down with heavy action, an opponent you respect and a scary board.

What did he have?

I pretty much agree with this. You have to play aces aggressively and sometimes you lose your stack with them. Slow down if you can, but its hard to do with aces heads up.

In this specific instance (the KJ898 board) villain had QJos. I didnt really care about the outcome, because, well, he's obviously a moron and I made a note of that - but I didnt have any experience with him, though I felt that the river card was the best possible card for me (other than an ace, i suppose) since it would have counterfeited KJ, K9, J9. But when I was looking back on it, I realize that the only real draw got there on the turn, and I didn't slow down (though with $23 in the pot after the flop and only $29 effective stack left, Im not sure I could get away from it anyhow).

I agree with this sentiment to a degree, but I'd also like to play as close to perfect poker as possible, which means being able to fold when Im beat, and I don't do that nearly as much as I should.

I think some of it just, as I said in the thread earlier, dealing with going through those periods where you think to yourself 'damn, everytime I get action with aces or kings i'm crushed', so you really start to evaluate how you're playing them. As long as you play them as close to 'correct' or 'perfect' as you can everytime, you'll be the winner in the long run, so thats what Im striving for.

And so far, from the consensus, I seem to have played the 3 original hands in question backwards from how everyone else would have.

This is pithy, but it's wrong. Never say 'never' in poker. Yes, with learning players, trying to reinforce good habits of not overplaying hands is a good concept, but the game has much more complexity than that.

Hand 1: Betting a tad more (say $4-$5) on the flop's good based on the texture. When we decide to 3-bet, we're not allowed to fold.

Hand 2: Like the previous hand, betting a bit more due to flop texture's probably good. Unless villain's really been getting out of line or I know his IP min-raise here is a free card play, I don't think I 3-bet. Yeah, we'll be annoyed when an overcard peels off on the turn. As played though, I do think we can fold to his 4-bet.

Hand 3: Not folding. Villain usually has a 9.

Hand 4: Don't worry about having bet too much. In fact, just put him in on the turn if you're going to bet.

I think the larger lesson here (beyond merely overpairs) is in 3-betting the flop. Your flop 3-bets should usually be monsters, air, or draws. When you're doing this with more mediocre hands (medium overpairs), you can frequently get yourself in trouble.

shhh

And you wonder why people want you to post more. Thanks for this.

"perfect poker"

Go away, gimmick account.

I admit it, I aim to play as well as the person in your avatar.

This is like the worse rule that too many people follow in poker.

If you have an equity edge, or your a favorite against your opponents range, put your damn monopoly moblinies in the pot.

(edit: cobalt beat me too it )



You aim to blow all of your money you made creating an million dollar website playing poker and being a retarded commentator?

I'm certainly not saying one pair is the nuts, or that it isn't vulnerable, but if you come down to a point where you're saying to yourself, "I should fold this, I only have one pair" your thinking process is incorrect. That is no reason to fold, ever.

For instance, for 100 bbs or less, there are VERY VERY few occasions when I'm going to fold Aces and I'm certainly not ever going to let the thought of just having one pair come into my mind.

I aim to be the best poker commentator on telev...

No wait, I want to right articles for ESPN giving a step-by-step account about how I'm going to win the WSOP ME and then going out 3hrs into day on....

No, wait, I aim to look like a fool, think im really good, and then get inexplicably angry at the table, causing millions of people to make fun of me.


Oh, Christ. Just shoot me.