Happend yesterday,
Second hand in a $160 buy-in 500 pl tournie, 10 handed.

Stacks are still 2500 around (only second hand of the tournie), blinds are 20-10.
I get 7/7 on the button


UG+2 bets 100
MP2 raises to 200
Button calls
UG+2 calls

FLop
2c,6s,7s

UG+2 Bets 200
MP2 raises to 500
Button raises to 1000
UG+2 all-in
MP2 all-in

Great, now what.

I have the nuts with a set of 7's.
The others are either drawing a straight or flush (or both) or if I am very lucky one is holding AA, KK, QQ.

--Results to be posted later ;-)

Thinking back I could have just called the post flop-bet to hope for a safecard to hit. Problem is that any non-safe card would make it very hard to play on, since either player could have hit his draw.
I could have pushed all-in instead of raising to 1000, but I was hoping to get one caller for an all-in so I could worry about only one player hitting a straight or a flush.

Did I mess up or is that just the way it works out sometimes?

Are you ****ing serious?

If you aren't happy calling with the stone cold nuts, what on earth WOULD you be happy calling with?

If the slightest possibility of considering anything but an instashoving while laughing gleefully crosses your mind here there's something wrong.

Download Pokerstove (from pokerstove.com). Assign ranges to the players, and check your equity here. You'll see that you are a MASSIVE favourite.

Well I was actually not unhappy, but I didn't have it stone cold.
UG+2 showed a set of 2's so he was crushed. MP4 showed a monsterdraw with 8s,9s and I lost to the flush which hit on the river.

Possibly the outcome changed my judgement of the hand. I just wonder if it would have been better to see the river with a safe card and then shove, vs doing it post-flop.

You're judging based on results. You put your money in as a favorite. PokerStove shows your equity is 49.96 vs 45.71. You basically took a coin-flip and lost.

With the way the hand went down. It didn't matter if you pushed or not, all the money was going into the middle before the turn. This is an instashove everytime. Also being as its early in the tourney, I'm playing for a big stack early. Folding here is -ev.

In a cash game you might consider keeping the pot small and looking for a safe board, but in a tourney get your money in.

isnt the general rule of thumb the opposite of that?
In a cash game if someone hits there draw I can rebuy and get back in against a weak player who risked all his chips on a draw...
In a tournament if he hits his draw I'm out and have no chance to play anymore

But in a tournament you generally play your +EV situations faster (especially when you have the made hand) because youre up against rising blinds, and there is additional value to tripling up early because of them (contary to the "each additional chip loses value" theory). Note I said "might consider" folding in a cash game...I doubt that I would unless I was playing too high or on my last buy in, but in a tourney I dont think its ever right to fold when you have the stone cold nuts and are the equity favorite to the river (except for bubble/prize considerations).

i agree w/ what you are saying, as the move was to go all in...
but, in general, when coming down to going all in in a cash game vs. a tournament, cash game you would be first to go all in everytime

Um, when you have the stone cold nuts, it's the time to get the pot as big as possible, because like, we have the nuts, you know? No one can have a better hand, so it's +EV to get as much money as possible in with the nuts, even considering to look for a safe board when you have the nuts it's ridiculous.

I thought this hand was going to be an omaha hand given the title.

I just really hope that it was the OP who voted fold, because if there is one more person on this forum who did, I'm pretty disappointed

I voted call, which I did. Glad to here I didn;t play it wrong (as being the general consensus).

Fold here face up to balance your folding range.

haha, well played... but we need more pictures of the girl in your avatar

Easy fold seeing two people moved in on you

Sincerely,
Jennifer Tilly

If you are seriously considering folding this, your insane. I mean, yeah, you might be up against draws, but you just have to hope others had some of their outs. Then just pray for the board to pair. Sorry that you lost the hand, but folding the nuts is just a move I haven't learned yet

hi smash

_______________

i'd consider smooth call if it's a bet and a fold. but since it's a bet and a raise, we gotta ship it in to isolate at the very least.

I'm voting this gets moved to the bad beat forum, as this thread is indicating as much.

Another thought popped into mind:

Why you not to accept allin withouth to see floop?

i vote call... but just out of curiousity... concerning this

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=119871

e.g AKs against ATC for your whole stack is +EV while AKo against ATC for your whole stack is slightly -EV early in a tourney...

can this be straight up be applied at all to the above situation? or do we need the extra info to know?

I don't really know how to work out EV in that situation, but I'm assuming it's going to be snap call no matter what because you are getting such a good price right? (e.g... more than tripling up... so the risk you are taking to increase your equity is worth it?)

Very well put

Any further discussion trying to justify folding the nuts in this thread is retarded, as is this example. yours sincerely, Sheiky.

Not an absolute. The current nuts can still have reverse implied odds, though I dont think top set can.

how on earth did this thread get 20 responses?

Having reverse implied odds would be even more of a reason to get as much money in the pot as the favourite surely.

No, not when you cant shut out your opponent with 2 cards to come (eg a 12 or 13 out draw) but you can with 1 card to come and you no longer have RIO.

that example was for bubble-play in stt sitngoes. ako is only -(realmoney)ev against the sb (because hes the only one with more chips than you, which means bout half the time you will bust out of the SNG without any money. the move itself is still +chipEV)

I was also wondering this play in relation to the topic Daniel posted on monsterdraws.

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=72695

Reread the thread, you are misunderstanding what he's talking about:



He's talking about something like an Overpair vs. a pair + Open Ended Straight flush draw, or Top Pair vs Two Overs + Flush Draw. Which is quite different than a set vs. any of those two.

Example from Daniel:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

11,880 games 0.037 secs 321,081 games/sec

Board: 3h 8h 9s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.061% 46.06% 00.00% 5472 0.00 { KK+ }
Hand 1: 53.939% 53.94% 00.00% 6408 0.00 { 7h6h }


---

My Top Pair vs. Overcard+FD example:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.001 secs 990,000 games/sec

Board: 3h 8h 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.071% 47.07% 00.00% 466 0.00 { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 52.929% 52.93% 00.00% 524 0.00 { AhKh }

Overpair vs. Pair+OESFD:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.001 secs 990,000 games/sec

Board: 9c 8d 7d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.444% 33.54% 00.91% 332 9.00 { AcAs }
Hand 1: 65.556% 64.65% 00.91% 640 9.00 { Td9d }


Your example:

---

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,612 games 0.036 secs 100,333 games/sec

Board: 2c 7s 6s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.240% 61.24% 00.00% 2212 0.00 { 7c7h }
Hand 1: 19.380% 19.38% 00.00% 700 0.00 { AsKs, AsQs, 9s8s }
Hand 2: 19.380% 19.38% 00.00% 700 0.00 { AsKs, AsQs, 9s8s }


---

Now, let's say that we can rule one of them into having Queens or better:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

37,926 games 0.228 secs 166,342 games/sec

Board: 7s 6s 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.028% 63.03% 00.00% 23904 0.00 { 7c7h }
Hand 1: 31.886% 31.89% 00.00% 12093 0.00 { AsKs, AsQs, 9s8s }
Hand 2: 05.086% 05.09% 00.00% 1929 0.00 { QQ+ }


---

Your hand is the exception to a monster draw being a favorite.

There was a good episode of the USPC last year where Thomas Wahlroos wound up folding Aces to a guy who pushed all-in with JT that hit top pair + flush draw. Had he hit a set, he commits, guaranteed.

I like the chances here that maybe both are drawing to the flush and gotta stick it in... if its heads up then it just depends on what you wanna do. Obviously your ahead so do you flip a coin to try and build some chips or is your stack healthy enough to fold is what I would be asking myself.

I call all day long...and probably end up eating shit for it, but that's how I run.

Coin flip?!


Is everyone in this thread huffing keyboard cleaner?

I think it's one of those threads that's so blatantly obvious that people try and make discussion about something they percevie as being slightly simmilar.

This has the potential of being JFarrell-esque.

Ok, maybe not that big, but still pretty big.

I didn't read many of the replies. I'm fist-pump shoving my chips in. In fact, if this was online the mouse might have went through the screen from shoving all-in so fast.

You're ahead of a lot of hands here and almost flipping against the draws. You put it in with the best of it and hope it stays that way.

I really wonder what you were hoping for when you called 10 BB preflop if not exactly a situation like that.
It is kinda funny anyways that there was an early bet an early reraise and a call PF and ppl show up with 22 89 and 77.
I mean it is a $160 tourney after all, not play money.
Which site is that btw? Think I need an account there.

how to play top set

Ok this is a link to a thread that was in PLO strat from this summer, now I would'nt think about folding top set when its the nuts ever but there are obviously different strategies to play it especially with a draw on board facing action. Even though its PLO it is essentially the same concept except you are going to be up against monster draws HU a lot more often obviously and in NL pretty sure you are always a fav vs one opponent when top set is the nuts. So read through it with an open mind and it should help in problems like this.

........................................



Should've had one.

Site is pokerroom.com.
Well it is 10times BB, but 200 to a 2500 stack is still relativly small especially especially when in position. And you are right I was hoping for a 7 to hit.

[x] It hit
[x] Furthermore, you flopped the nuts
[x] Act accordingly
[x] imo

I said I didn't read many of the replies. I didn't see your little chart there, amigo. And if that was a picture of a V8 Splash, I'd gladly drink it. I don't like regular V8. Blah! (And yes, I know what you're getting at by posting a picture of a can of V8 juice.)

All in good fun, I assure you.

This thread is just too humorous altogether for me to step away.