I'll admit that I'm biased since I'm a Raptors fan and share season's tickets but Jose Calderon right now is playing as well as almost any other point guard in the league.

At the moment I put the top 3 point guards in the NBA as Paul, Nash and Deron Williams. I would put Calderon in a second group behind them along with Baron Davis and Billups. Yes I don't think Jason Kidd is a top point guard any longer since his shooting is so bad and his defense is also way below average.

Calderon over the last 12 games is shooting over 70% which is insane for a point guard.

Here are his stats on the season and overall NBA rank.

Assists: 8.9 per game - 5th in the NBA - As a starter he's averaging over 10 per game.
Assist to Turnover Ratio: 5.6 - 1st in the NBA by a lot
FG% : 55.0 % - 8th in the NBA and especially impressive for a point guard
3-Point % : 48.0 % - 4th in the NBA
Freethrow % : 92.4 % - 1st in the NBA

If you get a chance to watch the Raptors play he isn't spectacular but boy is he good and he seems to play his best when the game is tight as he seems to have no nerves.

I love Calderon. In fact I said he was way better than Ford before the season and was laughed off this very forum!

Uhh, actually he's one of, if not the best defender at his position in the league.

Gotta love Raptor fans, if they were as good as they're fans think they are they would win 75 games every year.

I've always liked Calderon, never understood why Cleveland never got him, but you're putting him in the same group as Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups!!?? Come on, that's an insult to those guys.

Watch a game with Jason Kidd. He is not a good defensive point guard. He's a pylon and the quicker guards just go around him. He has this undeserved rep as a good defensive player because he's an excellent rebounder and he takes chances and gets some steals in the lanes. He can't stop dribble penetration at all any longer and being able to guard your own man is the most important defensive skill for a point guard.

I'm very realistic about how good the Raptors are. They're not close to being a championship team as they don't rebound well and have some other areas that need improving before they can challenge for that. I've been watching NBA games since Bob MacAdoo was a Buffalo Brave and they were playing regular season games here at Maple Leaf Gardens.

As for Calderon, have you actually seen a game recently ? Listen to the comments from the Coachs on the other teams after a game and you may change your mind. The guy is one of the main reasons that Spain won the World Championships, he's cool as a cucumber, never turns the ball over, is shooting the ball as well as anybody and can take his man off the dribble and finish at the rim with either hand.

Calderon is only an average defender but then again so is Steve Nash.

Don't just go by player's reputations, watch some games and look at how they're playing.


Edit: This highlight pretty much sums up Kidd's defense. Look how far off Calderon he's playing because he can't stop other point guards from getting around him and he has to try and go under all the screens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klBGYbvC0VM...feature=related

The problem with the Raptors IMO is Bosh just isn't a #1. They need a better first option. Every other part is there but they need Bosh to either improve a little or I think they'll never get to the finals.

You might be right about Bosh, but they could end up being a team like the Pistons where they have 5 really solid players and no true superstar and do just fine.

You know that play was Mikki Moore's fault and not Kidd's right? Whether a player goes under or over a screen roll is not a decision by the player. In the Nets case they are ultra thin up front and have to stop penetration first and foremost. Wait a minute so you're saying Jason Kidd is a below average defender and Steve Nash is average? So Steve Nash is a better defensive player than Jason Kidd? I don't think I need to say anymore.

I like Calderon, but he's not close to Baron Davis or Chauncey Billups.

In all fairness, I think Billups is way overrated. He is kind of riding the reputation he made in one postseason and really hasn't been close to staying at that elite level since, even though he is pretty solid.

Have you watched any Nets games this year ? The play was just something I saw that showed how far off the other point guards Kidd is playing because he no longer has any quickness, my focus wasn't how he handled the screen but the fact he was playing so far off a player like Calderon who is a good shooter. He's no longer a good defensive point guard. I read a quote on a basketball board that's I'll paraphrase. All basketball players are either overrated or underrated based on reputation. Kidd's reputation as being a good defensive point guard is no longer earned on the floor.

Nash and Calderon are not good defensive players but they are superior offensive players to Kidd and that's why they are more effective today than he is.

I love what Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups bring to the table. I have a friend who thinks that Billups is overrated but I don't agree and have that argument with him all the time. You obviously haven't watched the Raptors and Calderon play enough over the last two months for you to say that Calderon isn't in the same class as they are right now. We'll see if he's able to keep it up in the playoffs and that will be the true test.

The guy is flat out doing things with his efficiency at shooting and protecting the ball that are pretty much unheard of. Think about it, a point guard who is shooting 55% while the next best in the league is Williams at 51.9 % and Nash at 50.8% and those are the only 3 over 50%. Kidd is at 36.8% and Davis 42.4% for comparison.

I'm not saying he's the MVP or best in the league or anything stupid like that. What I am saying is that he's turned into an elite point guard and is among a large group of really good point guards that are in the league right now.

You don't become an elite player by playing well over a 2 month stretch in the regular season.

True

But you can play your way into a much better contract which is exactly what he is doing.

Calderon is an immense talent, and blossoming quite nicely.

Steve Nash is to defense as FEMA is to flood relief.

Jason Kidd's help on the perimeter was Vince freakin' Carter. And I doubt half the people reading this forum could name two guys in the paint that Kidd had to funnel into when he gambled for steals or over-commited.

his assist-turnover ratio is insane.

I love Calderon, but he stunk up the Garden tonight.

I'd say Calderon is a Top 10 Pointguard in the L. I believe he would be able to solidify himself as a Top 5 PG if he could continue to improve and just get used to playing big minutes and being more assertive. He's become an absolutely amazing shooter and is one of the best finishers at the rim for points guards as well. The guy is absolutely lights out with his pull-up and he makes a ton of shots in short clock scenarios. His A/TO ratio is insane, his only real weakness is his Defense. I think it's awful and he gets blown by on a consistent basis by pretty most guards. Part of this is because he's big for a point and is just not very gifted with lateral speed. He needs to learn to play better angles though and it's something he can improve on more than likely.

Comparing him to a Billups or Baron is no insult to those guys, he's pretty close to them if not on their level. His game is very much like Stockton in the way he plays. He's the closest player to Stockton that has come into the League. I'm not saying he's on that level, but his style of play is similar. It's easy to tell that Calderon could put up similar scoring numbers if he chose to do so. If you can score 13 ppg at 54%, it would not be all that difficult to score 20 ppg at a 42% clip. All Calderon would need to do is shoot more and he would have the same numbers as Baron and Billups. Of course, if you have seen Calderon play, this is the last thing he cares about. He runs the team amazingly and scoring is always secondary.

I really don't agree with this. Bosh is a legit #1 option and easily a top 15 player in the League, maybe even top 10. If Bosh is not a #1 option, tell me what #2 option in the League is better than Chris Bosh? Bosh is a perennial All-star, he's really improved his D this year and continues to get better every year. He would also have even better #'s if he didn't start the year off slow with injuries, but 23/9 is nothing to scoff at anyways. He's also young, still only 23 and has his prime years ahead of him.

Manu Ginobli.... sploooooggggeeeeee


- Tskillzzz

You'd rather have Manu than Bosh?

I'd argue that Manu is the Spurs best offensive player and that Duncan isn't clearly a superior offensive player to Bosh. I'm not trying to bash Duncan with those comments but that's how highly I think of Manu.

Bosh is quicker than Duncan and has a better outside shot. Duncan is a better Post scorer and passer and of course the refs cheat so much for him that it makes him even more effective.

Whattya know, another Raptor fan. I would have bet money you were from Toronto before I looked.

Don't see how I'm being biased in what I wrote. Feel free to debate any point I made though.

Baron Davis, Chauncey Billups.
20 ppg.

I've already said what I've had to say. All NBA fans know you can't win with Raptor fans, so I'll conclude that I like Calderon, he's a nice player but not as good as Raptor fan thinks.

Like I said, feel free to debate any point I made. So what if Baron and Chauncey average more points than Calderon? None of those teams has a clear #1 option like Bosh, so Baron and Chauncey need to carry more of the scoring load. Both those players also play more minutes than Calderon, Baron in particular. It doesn't mean they're better scorers neccessarily, it's just their teams need them to take more shots. At the same time, both those players are scoring guards more than pass first point guards like Calderon is. Stats alone don't define how good a player is. Andre Miller and Mo Williams put up near identical numbers to Chauncey, but are they on Chauncey's level? I don't think so.

I'm not going to comment on Calderon because I really haven't seen him play, but this is dumb. You clearly haven't seen enough Pistons basketball if you are saying this. I've seen Chauncey dismantle the Bulls in every possible way far too many times to think this.

Did I ever say anything about how much they score? I don't care about stats at all. The "20 ppg" was about your statement about Calderon going from 13 to 20.

Calderon doesn't even get the majority of minutes at the point on his own team, but he's a top 5 point guard and on Baron Davis' and Chauncey Billups' level. Right.

Maybe I'll start a thread saying TJ Ford is a top 5 point guard. Do you think if Baron Davis or Chauncey Billups was on the Raptors they'd be splitting minutes with TJ Ford?

No

I like Bosh's game a lot.

Wrong, Duncan is really solid to 18 feet. Bosh is a lot more inconsistent than Duncan on jumpers.

Chauncey's main strength is his ability to score. He was always known as more of a 2 guard than a 1 until he came to Detroit. He can obvioulsy play the point and lead the team, but he is not a pure point guard.

Duncan is very solid with his jump shot I won't argue that.

Bosh's outside shot has jumped a level this year and he has consistent range out to the 3 point line. I've seen them both play a lot and Bosh would beat Duncan in jump shooting contest right now in my opinion. Bosh's jump shot and foul shooting have both become rock solid this year. 86% from the line for example.

With his back to the basket Duncan of course is the far better player.

Why is it far fetched to think someone that averages 13 ppg on 54% shooting could bump their average to 20 ppg just by taking more shots? If you've seen Calderon play, you would know he scores by creating his own shot and still shoots a high percentage. Nash averages 17.5 ppg, but I'd bet he could average 25 per game if he chose to.

Both TJ Ford and Jose Calderon are probably Top 10 PG's in the League. When you have a situation where you have 2 PG's that are this good, minutes are going to be split and overall #'s won't look as impressive from a individual standpoint. Still, most of you probably underestimate the #'s both of them put up. TJ is averaging 12/6.5 in 23 mins a game this year and put up 14/8 in 30 minutes last year. Jose puts up 13/9 in 32 mins a game. That's 25/15 from the pointguard spot, better production than any other pointguard combo in the League easily. It's a unique situation and both players do not get to shine the way they would if they were not on the same team.

If Chauncey and Baron were on the Raptors with TJ, they would probably be playing a lot at the 2 while TJ played the 1. Jose and TJ both are pure 1's, but Chauncey and Baron have the ability to play some 2 guard. Splitting minutes would be irrelevant since they would be playing together.

They would be on the floor playing the 2 guard a lot with TJ at the point since they are both physical guards who can defend a lot of 2's in the league.

I have one question for you Poppy. How many Raptor games did you watch over the last few months while TJ was injured and Calderon was starting ?

Bosh has a much better jumper than Duncan. Bosh probably makes 3 times the amount of outside jumpers Duncan does. Bosh takes them routinely as part of his arsenal, Duncan takes them usually only when he's wide open. Duncan's main strength is his back to the basket game. You can go look up Hotspots that will prove this point. Bosh also shoots these outside jumpers at a higher %. Freethrow shooting is not even close as it's a huge weakness for Duncan while it's a strength for Bosh.

I'd never seen the Hotspots site before but I love it.

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

It really does illustrate where players are taking their shots from and where they're making them from and makes it even more obvious that Bosh has the better outside game than Duncan.

An interesting stat that is available at NBA.com is the Efficiency Stat.

NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).

I sorted all the guards in the NBA for efficiency per 48 minutes and the results are below.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Effic...tDD=All%20Teams

1. Chris Paul
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Steve Nash
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Jose Calderon
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Deron Williams
8. T.J. Ford
9. Baron Davis
10. Dwyane Wade

While Poppy is far more dynamic than a typical "Laker's Fan", you have to admit, the concept of a Laker Fan berating another Team's fan for overrating their complimentary players is.. umm...amusing?

Enough to know Jose Calderon is not in the same league as those players.

You guys are saying Calderon is a top 5 point guard in the league. So it goes Nash, Paul, Williams, then Calderon?

Just for the record these are my rankings of point guards:

Paul
Nash
Williams
Davis
Billups
Arenas
Kidd
Parker
Cassell
Harris

That's 10, and you still got guys like Bibby and Hinrich. I guess you could put him in that group to be generous. Oh, and I'd put Barbosa in front of him.

No. He's just resulted to not making sense at any point about Ginobili and is now making himself look bad in every thread.



I don't know if Manu is their best offensive player. He's obviously the most complete offensively with finishing at the rim, jump shot, drive, etc. But, most solid 2 guards can say that. Duncan is the best low post threat in the league (is this debateable?) IMO. I don't like when he sits back and shoots jumpers, especially straight on, from the sides where he can bank he's very solid.

Bosh's range is better than Duncan's but I'm not sure about consistency. Again from head on his shot is much better, so that goes with foul shooting.

I can't name many #2 options that are better scorers than Bosh. If Ginobili is a #2 then he is probably a better scorer, AI/Melo, McGrady, Amare/Nash, Pierce, and I have a mancrush on Josh Howard.

But that wasn't my initial point. I don't think every team has a #1 and I certainly don't think every team has a player that is capable of leading their team to an NBA championship. Right now I think the other players on the Raptors are solid enough to win a championship if their #1 player was a little better. I think if they had Amare, Howard, Boozer, Garnett, Duncan, or when healthy Brand and Yao that they could win the championship this yr. That's not a knock on Bosh, but he's behind those bigs. I'm not even saying they can't win it with Bosh but I think he needs to develop more or that Bargnani, Calderon, and Bosh need to be a 3 headed monster, which they aren't right now.

The point guard's role is to run the team, no?

Billups has run maybe the most consistently efficient team in the NBA over the past few years.

You have no clue how funny it is that you did this. I think it's hilarious. Hmmm look at Ginobs at #4. (Obv pulled this out earlier in the yr to prove how good Ginobili is)

So what you're saying is that you haven't watched any games and are going by reputation alone. Good to know.

In my opionion there is a clear top 3 in the NBA at the point guard position and that is Paul, Nash and Williams just like you have it. I think there is a second group that includes players like Billups and Davis that is behind them and I put Calderon in that group. Today I think Billups and Davis are better than Calderon but he's a young player who was a good player before but over the last 30 games or so has been playing at an elite level and he's been doing some things as well or better than any other point guard in the league. If he continues to play at that level there's no doubt that he's one of the best point guards in the league but still behind the top 3.

Thank you. But if he was on the Raptors they would make him move to the 2 guard in favor of Jose Calderon.

I said he's Top 10 and that he could potentially be in the Top 5. The main reason why I say this is that Calderon and Ford are both getting better and on the incline. Davis and Billups are veterans and are not going to get any better than they are now. Calderon and Ford are in their 3rd and 4th years respectively.

Putting Cassell and Harris in front of Calderon and Ford is a joke. It's debatable whether either is even really a pointguard. Bibby and Hinrich? Please, no team would trade for either of them unless they unloaded a huge contract or gave away spare parts. I'm not saying they're not decent players, but no GM would pick either over Calderon or Ford.

Of that list, I would only definitively say Nash, Paul and Williams are better. Arenas I would not consider a pointguard, unless you consider Iverson one as well, which I don't. I'd say Davis and Billups have the edge on Calderon slightly, just based on experience and accomplishments. From a skills standpoint and what each brings to the pointguard spot, it's fairly close and each player has the edge on the other in their respective ways.

Thank you. I think.

There's actually a lot of really good Laker fans. You just can't judge us during the championship years when all the fake ones come out. It's the Cedric Ceballos years, the Chucky Atkins years, and the Kwame Brown years that make the real fans.

So you agree that they're overrating Calderon?

When have I ever overrated any Laker? Is it because I'd rather have Derek Fisher than any other point guard in the league, or that Robert Horry should be a hall of famer?

I said he runs the team fine, but his strength is scoring the ball more than it is being a playmaker and creating for his teammates. You can be more of a scorer than a pure point and still run the team fine. It's not a knock on Billups at all, it's just the way he plays the game.

Well it might just be me, but if you actually play the position of point guard, then you're a point guard. Gilbert Arenas plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Devin Harris plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Iverson does not play point guard, that's the only reason he's not on that list.

I would say he's pretty close to Hinrich. Calderon is a bit of a better offensive player, but defense counts too and Calderon isn't even in the same stratosphere as Hinrich there. I will admit that Hinrich has not had a good year, but there's circumstances obviously going on in Chicago right now.

Fair enough, I see your point. There's no way the Raptors are even close to being a contender right now. If you replaced Bosh with any player in the L, they still would not be good enough to contend though. The Raptors are improving, but definitely not there yet.

If you want to call all of them pointguards, that's fine, but they are all still 2 guards more than they are point guards. They look for their own shots first and pass second. Lebron is more of a pointguard than either of them. Even if you want to include them, Calderon is still better than both by far. Pointguards that actually look to pass first are commodities in the League, because there are not many around. Calderon can make an impact on a game without scoring.

Comparing him to Hinrich is just rediculous. Calderon does everything significantly better than Hinrich other than playing defense. Hinrich's D is not amazing either. I'm not even bringing up Calderon's rediculous 5.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio which is unheard of. What team would want Kirk Hinrich starting on their team if they were looking to compete?

As a Bulls fan I have to chime in and say Hinrich is an overrated defender. He's a good perimeter defender but I have seen him get posted up on by bigger guards (Billups) waaaaay too many times.

Ginobili has always been underrated and is incredibly efficient. He has a better offensive repetoire, but he is not as valuable as Duncan to their team. It's Duncan's team and nobody would argue that. Even when he was putting up 15 ppg in previous seasons, I felt he was an awesome player. It's not how many points you score, it's the fashion in which you score them that determines how good an offensive player you are. Players like Maggette can score 22 ppg on bad teams, but he wouldn't do the same on a good team.

THAT is funny.

Again, he's splitting time on a team that wouldn't make the playoffs in the Western Conference.