I haven't seen too much of villain to have any big reads. I do know that he plays all of his hands pretty aggressively. I feel like my image is TAG. I raise from the BB here because MP limp seems pretty weak, and I feel like I am ahead of his range quite often here.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($50)
SB ($60.50)
Hero ($51.50)
UTG ($44.50)
MP ($66.80)
CO ($49.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $2.5, MP calls $1.50, SB folds.

Flop: ($5) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $3, MP raises to $8, Hero...

I will pick up the action after a few responses.

The only hands that he's repping that currently beat you are 22 and 33. There are a ton of draws and weaker kings that he can have here.

I would reraise with the assumption that he's going to push a set on me and call with the draw?

Acid, I agree with you completely. That being said, is there any value in flating his bet and c/r a non-club turn? Just a thought. I feel like if I three bet here, that he is likely to push any set or Ac-xc hand, yes? If he is aggressive he is pushing the nut flush draw, right? If that's the case, I have to fold to a four bet (whether its a set or the flush draw), right?

Thanks.

That's fine but it's kind of suicidal for him to 4-bet shove a flush draw here, even the Ax flush draw since it's so likely that he's just dead to clubs, so if he's shoving the Ax flush draw then he should basically be shoving all flush draws. If he's gonna be that aggressive, then I like the flat call, turn c/r line better. If it's likely that he doesn't 4-bet us on the flop with a flush draw, then I think we should 3-bet there because it sucks when we CRAI the turn and are drawing dead vs his set.

Yeah, for sure. Those are my thoughts exactly.

So, I felt like he is 4-betting for sure if he has a draw, so I flat call. And this happens:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)



Turn: ($21) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($21) (2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP raises to $56.8 (All-In), Hero...



OK, so my thoughts... the club comes and I am done with the hand. When I check, he checks behind, and I thought that maybe I am actually ahead here, because I see him value betting the made flush or protecting his set from the four flush. The queen is an action card for me (although it doesn't improve my hand that much against a set or flush, but I am now for sure ahead against any K-x hands). So, I value bet it and he shoves...

I think c/c>>>b/f>>>>>>>c/f>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>b/c on the river

based on reads i like everything about the hand, including the river

river's a bet-fold.
can't rely on villain to bet Kx - lots of times he just checks behind.
the only bluff i can really see here that we pick off with a c-c is A4 no clubs - but someone who's semibluffing that with a K on the flop is not checking behind that turn.
if you c-c, you sometimes miss out on a value bet, rarely pick off a bluff, and typically end up calling a bet larger than the one you would've made against a hand that beats you.
the only way i see c-c being a better option is if the villain is prone to both betting and bluff-raising the river with made hands (i.e. with a crappy Kx). and that's a pretty rare bird.

LOL. C/F river. Every single draw just got there and we already narrowed down his flop raise to basically be a draw or a set or a worse king. He's probably never betting a worse king and we can't beat any draw that he had on the flop.

As played, it's obviously a fold after your bet, but c/cing the river is so horrible that I can't even put it into words. C/F top two pair is pretty shitty in general, but if there's ever a spot for it, this would be that spot.

i don't think a villian never value bets a worse king here cause our hand doesn't exactly scream that we have a king

i also don't think c/c ing is so horrible that is can't be put into words. c/c gets us to a showdown probably for the same amount that we would b/f so i go to a showdown here and c/c as long as river bet isn't ridiculous. in addition we get great knowledge on villians play here whether is light, med strong, or ala nutz.

i think c/f is horrible

In this hand, we raised preflop, bet a K high dry (with the exception of the flush draw) flop and called a raise OOP. Are we going to play QQ that way? I think that the way that we played the hand and the way that the villain played the hand make it very obvious that he was on a draw. Since every draw got there, I can't see a point to putting many chips into the pot.

I don't mind the bet/fold line since it is really the only way to get value from worse hands IMO. I think c/cing and hoping that he's betting a hand worse than ours (basically it'd have to be a stone cold bluff that didn't follow through on the turn) like 1 out of 3 times if he bets the pot, is just going to be a very -EV play.

The idea of bet/folding is that it gives him a chance to call with a worse hand and for us to set the price in case he has a better one. The reason that I think bet folding here sucks too is because we are really crushed by his range of hands after that river. If we're c/cing, then we are just burning money because he's simply not going to bet unless we're beaten or unless he's bluffing, and he won't be bluffing enough for us to show a profit.

IMHO, b/f =/> c/f > c/c.

i don't think that villian's line is an absolute draw. i mean we raise preflop and c-bet of course he can raise top pair/any kicker and shutdown on the turn. i will agree that the line is typically a draw but i don't think it is always a draw. i see this done with top pair/any kicker a ton from a wide variety of villians at these levels. and unfortunately some people would get stubborn and call the raise with TT or JJ or QQ as they should if this is an obvious draw on the flop.

i'm kinda understanding the b/f theory that you have. i wonder what would be the correct amount to b/f though. i think $12 may be the perfect amount to achieve value. but don't you think that the $12 is suseptible to be bluffed.

i think a problem i have (which may not even be a problem) is that i become complacent with pots at times. thinking this pot is big enough and tend to miss a bit of value at times but on the contrary i save myself a bit at times.

i just cannot understand how c/f could ever be in front of c/c here, like ever. our hand looks like we have jack sht. i still check and hope to have a call similar to the size i would've bet.

Acid makes a good point, but pretty much every way we play this hand on the river is going to suck.

I think the bet/fold was spot on. He may pay us off with KJ/K10 maybe a slowplayed AK or random two pair, but he's really not going to bed the river with a worse hand, so we're looking at getting max value, and it's an easy fold to any kind of raise.

I don't mind 3-betting the flop and getting it in there. If he has a set so be it, but I think you are still way ahead of his flop range (you lose to 22 and 33, and you are ahead of any draw, bluff or weaker king).

In position I would be more inclined to flat and see a turn card.


Positives for flat calling:
We don't go broke to a flush or a set if a club comes.
We may gain more from weaker hands if a blank comes.

Negatives for flat calling:
We still get stacked on a blank turn against a set.
We can get sometimes get bluffed off by KJ on a club turn.
We may get bluffed by clubs on an ace turn.
We give a flush draw a cheap card and also a chance at seeing a free river.
We can lose valuse against a hand like KJ if a club comes.
We give a weaker king or an underpair a chance to catch a 2-3 outer and stack us.



Anyone think of any other positives for flat calling there?

EDIT:
BTW, our hand is pretty much the same as ace king (and arguably stronger than AA) here, and if we ever want to 3-bet bluff or 3-bet draws here we need to value raise AK/KQ as well, otherwise our range is polarised to sets and bluffs.

Becoming complacent with pot size is a rather large problem. If you have an edge, exploit it.

The last line you wrote is incorrect thinking. If we check, he bets and we call, we are almost always making a mistake because he will not bet a hand for value that is wrose than ours. Just becuase we might get to see the showdown for $18 instead of betting $12 and folding, doesn't mean it's profitable to c/c the $18 in lieu of bet/folding for $12.

I like this line... and the presentation is straight to the point

krup, i think your point about how our hand looks like crappo is exactly what makes b/f better than c/c.
because of that, Kx will usually just check behind thinking there's no value to a bet, while at the same time, almost never bluff raising us on the river because we give the impression that just a call will often be enough for villain to win. things would be different if there were non-Kx hands that could constitute a bluff if we check to him - but i don't really see any likely candidates.

the primary benefit of c/c would come from our hand being so under-repped that villain might actually valuebet an amount less than our b/f amount with Kx/flush/str8/set. but even if that's true, he always bets with better hands, and not so much with Kx, so whatever $ we save by letting him bet less is probably more than offset by the times he doesn't bet Kx but would've called our bet with it.

i hadn't really thought too seriously about c/f, but Acid makes a pretty good case for it.

MP limped and then called pre-flop, followed with a re-raise on a K high board + flush draw during the flop. I'm 99% certain this is a set miner who hoped the King would 3 Bet and then he slowed down after you flat called him in order to determine whether or not your call put you on the flush.

You 3Bet the flop and then shut down to resistance there, after the turn, you're either folding to any bet or donating a blocking bet on the river.

The AA=AK=KQ argument doesn't make sense, 2 pair doesn't mean a thing at this point and AA=AK would have never flat called the flop.

I'm pretty sure that c/c and b/f are gonna be -EV plays for us here, which means that c/f is probably best by the process of elimination since it sucks the least out of the 3 options.

i don't see any edges here and yeah i typically will exploit edges it's actually my MO. it's certain odd spots like this one that i become complacent. where i can't take time to make a long drawn out thought process because i'm playing 6 tables. now this could still be a problem i'm not sure.

obv i agree with the second part but for the long term i want to see villians cards and how he played what he played and learn from it. i'm not good enough to c/f here and i'm thinking about 98.6% of the posters on this forum aren't either.

of course you fall in the 1.4% (maybe)

I just think that check/folding top two when people at these stakes are willing to play KJ, KT, 23 and shit like that and will bet the river if we check again is incredibly weak.

Doubtful

Hero needs to check/call up to 3/4 pot size bet and fold to all others on the river, too.
Discipline matters.

Honestly, if you thought you fell behind on the turn, you're still behind on the river.

I see SO much money taken from people with this passive/aggressive play it's not even funny.

Follow up note. I don't think it's nec. a good way for the villain to get value over time out of hitting hands like this, if indeed, the villain does have the flush. I just see it done a lot.

New insight into my bet/fold idea:

I mixed up the order of the turn and river and thought the draws got completed on the river. It doesn't change much, but I think that bet/fold is the way to go here. I would still play the flop faster though.