Some more quick questions:
Is there any type of exocommunication within Buddhism where someone could be "cast out" from their religion/temple etc.
Most religions seem to have some opposement to science explaining the world what is Buddhism's opinion on science?

A Collaboration Between Science and Religion
January 14, 2003

By His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

These are times when destructive emotions like anger, fear and hatred are giving rise to devastating problems throughout the world. While the daily news offers grim reminders of the destructive power of such emotions, the question we must ask is, what can we do to overcome them?

Of course such disturbing emotions have always been part of the human condition—humanity has been grappling with them for thousands of years. But I believe we have a valuable opportunity to make progress in dealing with them, through a collaboration between religion and science.

With this in mind, I have, since 1987, engaged in an ongoing series of dialogues with groups of scientists. Organized by the Mind & Life Institute, they have been on topics ranging from quantum physics and cosmology to compassion and destructive emotions. I have found that while scientific findings offer a deeper understanding of such fields of knowledge as cosmology, it seems that Buddhist explanations can sometimes give scientists a new way to look at their own field.

Our dialogue has provided benefits not just for science, but also for religion. Though Tibetans have valuable knowledge about the internal world, we have been materially backward partly because of a lack of scientific knowledge. Buddhist teachings stress the importance of understanding reality. Therefore, we should pay attention to what modern scientists have actually found through experiment and through measurement the things they have proved to be reality.

At the beginning of these dialogues there were very few of us from the Buddhist side at first just myself and two translators. But recently, we have started to introduce modern science studies in our monasteries, and at our most recent science dialogue there were twenty or so Tibetan monks in the audience.The goals of the dialogue are on two levels. One is at the academic level, the expansion of knowledge. Generally speaking science has been an extraordinary tool for understanding the material world, making vast progress in our lifetime—though of
course there are still many things to explore. But modern science does not seem to be as advanced regarding internal experiences.

In contrast, Buddhism, an ancient Indian thought, reflects a deep investigation into the workings of the mind. Over the centuries many people have carried out what we might call experiments in this field and have had significant, even extraordinary, experiences as a result of practices based on their knowledge. Therefore, more discussion and joint study between scientists and Buddhists scholars on the academic level could be useful
for the expansion of human knowledge.

On another level, if humanity is to survive, happiness and inner peace are crucial. Otherwise the lives of our children and their children are likely to be unhappy, desperate and short. The tragedy of 11th September 2001 demonstrated that modern technology and human intelligence guided by hatred can lead to immense destruction. Material development certainly contributes towards happiness - to some extent - and a comfortable
way of life. But this is not sufficient. To achieve a deeper level of happiness we cannot neglect our inner development. I feel, for example, that our sense of fundamental human values has not kept pace with powerful new developments in our material abilities.

For that reason I have been encouraging scientists to examine advanced Tibetan spiritual practitioners, to see what effects of their spiritual practice might be of benefit to others, outside the religious context. One approach would be to take the help of scientists in trying to make the workings of these inner methods clear. The important point here is to increase our understanding of the world of the mind, of consciousness, and of our
emotions.

Experiments have already been carried out that show some practitioners can achieve a state of inner peace, even when facing disturbing circumstances. The results show such people to be happier, less susceptible to destructive emotions, and more attuned to the feelings of others.

These methods are not just useful, but cheap: you don’t need to buy anything or make anything in a factory. You don’t need a drug or an injection.

The next question is how are we to share these beneficial results with people beyond those who happen to be Buddhists. This does not concern Buddhism as such or any other religious tradition—it is simply a matter of trying to make clear the potential of the human mind. Everybody, whether rich or poor, educated or uneducated, has the potential to lead a peaceful, meaningful life. We must explore as faras we can how that can be brought about.

In the course of that exploration, it will become obvious that most disturbances are stimulated not by external causes but by such internal events as the arising of disturbing emotions. The best antidote to these sources of disruption will come about through enhancing our ability to handle these emotions ourselves. Eventually we need to develop an awareness that provides the ways and means to overcome negative, disturbing emotions ourselves.

The spiritual methods are available, but we must make these acceptable to the mass who may not bespiritually inclined. Only if we can do that will these methods have the widest of effect. This is important because science, technology, and material development cannot solve all our problems. We need to combine our material development with the inner development of such human values as compassion,tolerance, forgiveness, contentment and self-discipline.

The American physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer made an analogy to Buddhism when describing the Heisenberg uncertainty principle thusly:

If we ask, for instance, whether the position of the electron remains the same, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron's position changes with time, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron is at rest, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether it is in motion, we must say 'no.' The Buddha has given such answers when interrogated as to the conditions of man's self after his death; but they are not familiar answers for the tradition of seventeenth and eighteenth-century science. J. R. Oppenheimer, Science and the Common Understanding, (Oxford University Press, 1954) pp 8-9.

I'll agree with the posters above that all of that has been written in this thread has been very interesting and enlightening (see what I did there?) and I appreciate everything that has been shared as I'm sure others do to.

I'd just like to add that I'm slowly learning a little bit about Buddhism as a whole and all that goes along with it and the part I like the most is that I have yet to come across anything that directly contradicts my own "secular" values. My main problem with Christianity and other religions has never been the supernatural beliefs they hold (though I often find them ridiculous) but the parts/stories/teachings of them that are morally wrong and disturbing. Often these other religions either sweep these parts under the rug or try and interpret them in a positive light but neither of these approaches clears my own conscience.

So far in my buddhist learnings I haven't encountered anything about the Buddha spreading his word by the sword or condemning the killing of thousands of "evil" people and thats what is encouraging me to learn more about it. That and the lack of judgement placed upon people who disagree with the religious leaders.

Some more quick questions:
Is there any type of exocommunication within Buddhism where someone could be "cast out" from their religion/temple etc.
Most religions seem to have some opposement to science explaining the world what is Buddhism's opinion on science?

As always thanks for the opportunity to learn.

Awakening the Buddha Within : Tibetan Wisdom for the Western World

Have you read this book?

I was thinking of picking up Hagen's book at lunch today but some reviews say it would still be a little to hard to grasp for someone completely new to the whole concept and this book would be a better starter. Any thoughts?

I haven't, but I did just read his _Buddha Is as Buddha Does_, and he's a very clear, engaging writer with a good knack for explaining things. Personally, I didn't find Hagen hard, but his wasn't the first book I read on the subject, so I was probably already primed for it and may not be the best judge on how easy it would be for beginners.

Give _Awakening_ a shot, and let us know what you think!

If you highlight a book title and then hit the little "u" up above the posting area it'll underline it for you.

Of course you probably already know that and just save yourself time with the underscore thingies, but I can't help myself.

The moral teachings that derives from the buddha-dharma is not a goody-goody code of behavior where we pretend virtue, curry favor, or promise to be good so that we can claim a reward at some later date. Rather, sound morality takes place wholly in the moment. It is based on the immediacy of Reality, on how we actually live. Our "reward" is in immediacy, in here and now, not in a never-never land

Ok, so if I already believe in pretty much everything I've read about Buddhism, what's the point?

I guess I'm saying...if most of the teachings seem like good common sense, what has being Buddhist (or at least knowing a lot about it) changed in you?

As was said in this thread alot, most people vastly misunderstand Buddhism as a religon.

Okay, i've heard about this thread for days now

I would love nothing more than sitting in a circle with Speedz and SBriand and holding hands humming.

Who's been talkin' smack about my thread?
Awwww...add Checky (and his kitten avie) and Tim and I'm there.

I think what you say about Buddhism helping you live a better life and giving you insight to yourself and your behavior is exactly it. That's what it's there for, and that's pretty much all it's there for.

No one was talking smack, some of us all post in the same thread and nothing but good things have been said.

"The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were arguing about the flag. One said, "The flag is moving." The other said, "the wind is moving." They could not agree, no matter how hard they debated. The sixth patriarch, Eno, happened to come by and said, "Not the wind, not the flag. It is the mind that is moving!" The two monks were struck with awe."

Southern Buddhist I'm interested if you have studied koans at all?

"The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were arguing about the flag. One said, "The flag is moving." The other said, "the wind is moving." They could not agree, no matter how hard they debated. The sixth patriarch, Eno, happened to come by and said, "Not the wind, not the flag. It is the mind that is moving!" The two monks were struck with awe."

whoa man that's deep.... pass the bong dude

"A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: `Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'

Joshu answered: `Mu!'"

Thanks for answering my questions on Buddhism, guys.

Anyways one more question about buddhism I had is how do they deal with rule/law breakers. Now ideally no one would ever murder someone else but in reality we all know it happens. Does buddhism lay out specific rules/policies on such crimes as murder or do they leave that to the legal department and try and avoid such situations?

Anyways one more question about buddhism I had is how do they deal with rule/law breakers. Now ideally no one would ever murder someone else but in reality we all know it happens. Does buddhism lay out specific rules/policies on such crimes as murder or do they leave that to the legal department and try and avoid such situations?

You could have just asked one of your best friends about it.

You CIA hat wearing bastard.

Buddhists might have a hard time meting out the death penalty, but they would not have a hard time at all with punishment. This is where karma comes into play again. It may have been your karma to murder that busload of nuns, and it may have been their karma to be murdered by you, but now, because of that act, it's your karma to spend the rest of your life in jail, or maybe be executed. Your actions caused your karma, so punishment after rule-breaking is only natural. There's no giving of free passes, but notice that there's also really no hate or vilification or judgment, either. It's just all proceeding as it should.

And Spademan really gets it. He's got the angry Zen master vibe, the kind of teacher who would happily be beating his students with a stick, but he totally gets it. The injunction against picking and choosing is one I like a lot as well. I think of it often. "Just This" is exactly it, but I don't think it can be the beginning instruction. It must come later, when the student is ready to hear its fullness and completeness.

I am scared. I was reading Hagen's book this morning and he had me look at a picture and figure out what it was. He said it would be hard and I would feel uncomfortable and frustrated but the minute it becomes clear I will feel relieved and such and that is I guess that is what it would feel like when I finally see. I swear I looked at that picture for 15 mintues. Took a break, looked at it again. I gave up and looked on page 140 for the answer and I looked at the picture again for 10 minutes knowing what it is supposed to be and I can't see it. It is really frustrating me.

it's a sailboat, obv

"The Great Way is not difficult, just avoid picking and choosing."

"As soon as one speaks, that is picking and choosing."

"Do not avoid picking and choosing."

This one does not pick and choose. This one does not avoid picking and choosing. This one neither picks and chooses nor avoids picking and choosing. My shouts fill the heavens and the earth and I rain fists upon you like breaking waves: It is just this.

Goso said, "When you meet a Man of the Way on the road, greet him not with words, nor with silence. Tell me, how will you greet him?"

The arrow has flown past Korea.

I know what Spademan and Tim are doing, but it's definitely insider stuff -- a dharma battle is when two people with understanding throw points of dharma at one another until one of them has demonstrated superior understanding.

Are you sure Spades isn't just spouting gibberish to confuse everyone?

I have made it naked for you.

You should cover it up. That's just inappropriate.

It must be naked, so I may fuck it.

Appropriate does not apply.

*humping motion*

Another victim of KrAIDS.

The Delusion of Appearances

Subhuti, someone might fill innumerable worlds with the seven treasures and give all away in gifts of alms, but if any good man or any good woman awakens the thought of Enlightenment and takes even only four lines from this Discourse, reciting, using, receiving, retaining and spreading them abroad and explaining them for the benefit of others, it will be far more meritorious. Now in what manner may he explain them to others? By detachment from appearances - abiding in Real Truth. - So I tell you -

Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:

A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;

A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,

A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.



When the Buddha finished this Discourse the venerable Subhuti, together with the bhikshus, bhikshunis, lay-brothers and sisters, and the whole realms of Gods, Men and Titans, were filled with joy by His teaching, and, taking it sincerely to heart they went their ways.

"Like a flash of lightning from a clear blue sky" does not apply.

To what shall I compare this life of ours?
Even before I can say
it is like a lightning flash or a dewdrop
it is no more.