I lost the HH for this hand, didn't show up in PT for some reason so this is from memory.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.1
6 players

UTG: 10ish
Hero: $24ish
Button: $15ish

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is in MP with K K
UTG calls $0.1, Hero raises to $0.45, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds

Flop: J 4 5 ($1.15, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.8, Button raises to $2.2, Hero calls

Turn: J 4 5 J ($5.55, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4, Hero ?


I called the flop planning to crai on the turn, should I still go through with it?

Haven't noticed anything unusual about the villain, he seems slightly LAG.

Screw kings. Fold preflop.

Oh, fold the turn.

Reraise the flop to around 5.5

As played this is a jack almost always so i fold turn

raise flop to 7.5 minimum.

Kill stupid shortstacker when he shoves w/ kj off and spikes the stupsoijthjsadhfjlkasdjfasd fucikning J.

I agree, I am three betting the flop all day long.

Also, at these stakes, I like to raise more with my premium hands than usual. The donks are always calling and you are getting more money in the pot.

As played, you have to fold., I think this is always a jack.

ifiseeonemorethreadaboutsomeoneslowplayingorgettingtricky
withavulnerablebighandOOPimighthavetostarthurtingpeople

isweartogodjust3betthefuckingflopnextitme.

His hand is vunerable to what exactly? 67?? AJ???

Why do you have to say that you ALLLWAYS have to do this or ALLWAYS have to do that? It feels sometimes like all everyone does on this forum is post random cliches and catch phrases without fully reasoning why or examining the validity of whatever blanket statement they're posting.

The aim of the game is to maximise winnings, 3-betting here seems like you're so scared of losing the pot you want every hand that could give us more action to fold right now so we don't have to deal with getting sucked out on once in a while.

Seriously, explain to me why our hand is 'vunerable' and we are getting 'tricky' here, i don't want to criticise but it annoys the hell out of me when you post without spaces like someone's being a heretic by not doing exactly what you believe the 'correct' line is.

Our hand is vulnerable because we will have a hard time playing out of position if an 8, 3, A or J falls on the turn or river. We are 3 betting the flop for value AND to protect our hand.

The board is dry so why not get the chips in there as quickly as possible? There are a few cards we don't want to see and raising now helps prevent having to make difficult decisions on later streets. By attempting to get our money in as early as possible, it helps to negate the positional disadvantage we have in the hand.

3-betting the flop also protects us against being moved of our hand on later streets if a bad card falls.

Um, given the action PF and on the flop, how is an 8 or a 3 a scare card???????

I don't see how we're going to get moved of our hand if a scare card falls as he's very rarely bluffing if the action on the turn goes bet/raise.

Why not gets chips in as quickly as possible? Well, if we knew we had the best hand and we knew the villain would agree to stick all his chips in the middle if we ask him to, then i'd take that option. However, we don't know what he's got and what he will call with when we 3-bet, flat calling gets us more action on the turn and river against a hand that wouldn't have called a flop re-raise.

Plain and simple, the Hero has 1 pair (albeit an overpair, which is almost certainly the best hand) and he is OOP. Play hands straight forward at these limits. He is getting tricky because he wants to c/r the turn, but if he takes that line, the only hands that would ever call him on the turn are ones that should be beating him. What is he trying to accomplish by c/r the turn? If he villain has top pair, he'd likely call a whole bunch of bets anyway. I guess that if he 3-bets the flop, he stops the villain from bluffing, but that's really it.

People are getting so caught up in making plays and being sneaky and stuff like that, when at these limits, it's basically pointless. If you have the best hand, just bet because worse hands are gonna call you because you're playing against weak players, and weak players call bets when they shouldn't.

If we're in position and we get c/r on the flop, I don't mind just calling there for a number of reasons, first of which is that we make sure that every street gets bet. I'm not afraid to play this hand, but I want full value for it. I'm not saying "raise the flop becuase there are a lot of scare cards that will fall." I'm saying raise the ****ing flop becuase we have the best hand an overwhelming majority of the time and he's gonna call us with hands that he should be folding. I mean, if we're calling the flop, wtf can we have? We have to have Jx or better almost always and since we raised preflop OOP, if he's thinking at all, he should be able to figure this out and we shouldn't get much more money from him. If he's not thinking about this stuff, then he's like "ZOMG I GOT TOP PAIR AND HE'S RAISING ME AGAIN!!! ALLLLLLLLLLL INNNNNNNNNNNN WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" There is virtually no point to ever slowplaying a 1 pair hand like this OOP at these stakes.

I can just picture you making this rant in person and laughing pretty hard at the poor soul that had to endure it.

I agree obv.

That's the thing though, if we play under the assumption that he folds all hands we beat to a turn c/r, then surely 3-betting the flop has exactly the same effect apart from losing a bet on the turn.

Thanks for explaining though, i do agree with a lot of what you said now you explained it fully (though not all of it because i'm a stubborn bastard).

Eh, I'm actually smiling. But yeah, I can see how that would be funny.

FWIW, a flop lead/call followed by a turn c/r is a MASSIVELY strong line to take and is far stronger than a flop 3-bet IMO.

Because it's .05/.10, and not 5/10.

I think you lose value by 3 betting this flop..

while your plan was to c/r the turn, I dont mind bet/folding the turn in this spot.

his raise on the flop could be a ton of hands, some of which dont contain a jack...

I would have 3 bet the flop.
The villain showed interest.
This hand sucks at the turn.
I might go into call down mode here.

You shouldn't have a "call down mode" IMO.

"might"

I might muck it.

I don't really have a strategy for the board pairing top card on the turn when we dramatically underrepresented our hand.

I guess when the hero says this, I need a range that he's putting the villain on to make my decision. OP?

You make my day sometimes

Yeah, that's gold. Play this conventionally, and the hand plays itself. How many hands do we see someone slowplaying, and then they get shoved on at the river and don't know what to do?

A flop 3 bet is not bad since I almost certainly have the best hand, but I felt there was a good chance the villain would fold most Jacks to a decent sized flop 3bet.

I don't think our hand is really vulnerable, I would only be scared of an A or J, which is like 15% or something to hit on the turn, so I don't see a big problem with a turn checkraise?. If the villain folds a jack to a 3bet on the flop more often then I am outdrawn on the turn is a turn checkraise a better play?


I thought this had to be a Jack like 90% of the time, and it seems like everyone else thought it was a Jack too.
I timebanked and typed "I think I have to fold", the villain replied "What you got?" and I said "not a jack" and folded.
Villain showed 6 7

Hmmm...what does everyone think of the villain's play? Raise on the flop, bet on the turn? His flop raise probably wasn't big enough to push the hero off the hand, especially if he had top pair. When called, J has to be a possibility for the hero. Then a bet after a check on the turn? If I am the villain, do I really want to call off all my chips on a possible c/r with a great drawing hand because I'm not folding with 14 outs? Do we play this hand like we are ahead and bet out on the turn like he did or take the free card and try to felt a hero w/trips on the river if we hit?

Villain's play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hero's play in this hand.

The villain can easily have a J and since the hero will have a tough time calling with anything less, the villain should bet. Combine that with the 15 cards in the deck that should win for him, and it's a mindnumbingly easy turn bet considering all he's got is 7 high.

Of course.

That's why a flop rr is vastly superior to a flat call.

Can i just check something? I've read all the above and understand why a flop re-raise is best.

But, if we jet re-reraised (4-bet), does this mean a set and do we fold?

I'm not folding KK to a button cold call PF and a light RR on this dry flop with this stack.
If he setted us, so be it. Otherwise, I'm going to war with the KK on the flop.

Sorry if I'm being dense, just trying to understand...so if we are the villain in this hand and played it the way he did on the flop by raising and getting called, can we put J in hero's range? Then when the turn comes J and it is checked into us, then are we betting again to rep a J or to protect our big draw or something else?

Establish a range PF. Don't wait to see cards and then let your imagination go wild.

At low limits, button cold calls of PF raises are often suited connectors, moderate aces, small PPs, etc.


EDIT: I see you are asking about the villain's range for the hero.
I don't think I can put a J in the hero's range, esp after the turn.

The villain has to put a J in my range but after the second J comes on the turn the chances I have a J are reduced so it's a good spot for him to semi-bluff as I will pretty much have to fold anything that's not at least a Jack. If the villain does get called then he has 15 outs to still win.