I figured I needed a new thread to be told why Lemieux > Gretzky so here we go!

1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Bobby Hull
6. Maurice Richard
7. Doug Harvey
8. Eddie Shore
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Howie Morenz
11. Dennis Potvin
12. Mark Messier
13. Ray Bourque
14. Terry Sawchuk
15. Jacques Plante
16. Patrick Roy
17. Guy Lafleur
18. Phil Esposito
19. Mike Bossy
20. Red Kelly
21. Glenn Hall
22. Stan Mikita
23. Ted Lindsay
24. Larry Robinson
25. Bryan Trottier
26. Bobby Clarke
27. Martin Brodeur
28. Dominik Hasek
29. Newsy Lalonde
30. Niklas Lidstrom
31. Joe Sakic
32. Steve Yzerman
33. Chris Chelios
34. Scott Stevens
35. Valery Kharlamov
36. Brad Park
37. Ken Dryden
38. Viacheslav Fetisov
39. Tim Horton
40. Bernie Geoffrion
41. Jaromir Jagr
42. Jari Kurri
43. Pierre Pilote
44. Paul Coffey
45. Bill Durnan
46. Charlie Conacher
47. Milt Schmidt
48. Bernie Parent
49. Frank Mahovlich
50. Billy Smith
51. Dit Clapper
52. Max Bentley
53. Vladislav Tretiak
54. Dickie Moore
55. Peter Forsberg
56. Turk Broda
57. Henri Richard
58. Earl Seibert
59. King Clancy
60. Cyclone Taylor
61. Brett Hull
62. Andy Bathgate
63. Scott Niedermayer
64. Syl Apps Sr.
65. Ted Kennedy
66. Joe Malone
67. Sprague Cleghorn
68. Serge Savard
69. Brendan Shanahan
70. Johnny Bower
71. Bill Gadsby
72. Al MacInnis
73. Marcel Dionne
74. Bill Cook
75. Elmer Lach
76. Johnny Bucyk
77. Bob Gainey
78. Guy Lapointe
79. Chris Pronger
80. Sergei Fedorov
81. Aurel Joliat
82. Sergei Makarov
83. Gilbert Perreault
84. Borje Salming
85. Doug Bentley
86. Cam Neely
87. Brian Leetch
88. Jacques Laperriere
89. Ron Francis
90. Sid Abel
91. Toe Blake
92. Peter Stastny
93. Bill Cowley
94. Bill Quackenbush
95. Georges Vezina
96. Teemu Selanne
97. Boris Mikhailov
98. Frank Boucher
99. Cy Denneny
100. Alex Delvecchio

I think Jagr should be way higher , thats the first thing i see after a quick look.

I think he proved he was really dominant and one of the greatest RW of all-time.

He's gonna retire as one of the best scorer/pts and the best europeen with lidstrom.

But dude , its all good you made that list but if god could anwser me the truth , i'll bet 10 000$ that you havent seen all this guys played 10 games.I mean HOWIE MORENZ. How old are you dude 110?

I had a pretty long argument with someone at the bar over the wekend about where Jagr currently stand on the all time raking list and where he will stand after his retirement.

This guy was trying to tell me a current top 15 and for sure top 10 at retirement.

Comments?

top 20 for sure.

Ok he had a bad attitude but the guy proved he was one of the best.

15 years consecutive with 30 goals.

I've never seen the pre-NHL guys or some of the guys who overlapped the O6 era, for sure. There's no video of Morenz, Shore, Lalonde, etc but to leave them out because video doesn't exist of them would be ridiculous. You simply have to look at the fact that Eddie Shore won a million Hart trophies as a defenseman and read how he was the most feared human in the sport to see how great he was.

wow , so you listen to old people who always put the old player like they were all gods and all and you calculate this and compare them to the player of the 1990 era?

This is ridiculous man.

You have no credibility with your top 100 if you havent seen them.

Why not just say : Here's a top 100 of the player i have seen played which include * insert years - 2008 *

Also , imo , jagr was better than Sakic & Yzerman.

But i understand someone who put them before him.

I find it way mroe scandalous to put Gordie Howe Before Mario Lemieux.

Mario Lemieux should invariably be in the top 3.

i can take if you put orr & betzky before but howe its hard to take.

its like a pimp slap in the face of mario.

I think that's way too high, everything's subjective but strictly measuring him against other RW's currently (which is a much deeper talent pool than LW) for example I don't think you can put him ahead of guys like Bossy and Lafleur (who I think are somewhat similar contemporaries in terms of being pure scorers) who elevated their teams more. Jagr's numbers are fantastic but he won 1 Hart trophy and like Montreal Serge says, his situation has to be to his satisfaction which I think turns a lot of people off. He is one of the most talented players I'll ever see in my lifetime but I don't think he squeezed enough out of it. I also think he can be taken out of the game mentally.

I never said I desired any.

Just to clarify, the oldest footage I have is from the 1953 playoffs so anyone whose career ended before 1953, I have not seen play which of course means they did not exist.

I'm gonna say this once and only once.

Montreal_Est comes off like a complete retard, and is FAR more annoying than serge.

FYP

thanks Zach... thats why you are my favourite..


Marshak, not so much...

sorry Zach but im not a retard and i know my hockey.

Hockey is so important for me you just dont understand how i love this game and im getting emotionnally involve speaking in a language i know little about.

I just find that rating player you never saw played is totally retarded , maybe thats retard but ok.

im pretty sure i know a lot more about hockey than you and you insulting me saying im a COMPLETE retard is ridiculous.

You gotta take into account that i play the little leafs/habs games a little over the top but it is for my own entertainment.

So you think rating HOWIE MORENZ before , lets say ( watching his list ) MARK MESSIER is not retarded ?!
Fact is , rating Mark messier before Howie Morenz is equally retarded as rating Morenz before Messier because nobody here's have a real experience watching Morenz play.You know when our parent salways said their generations were better and us we'll tell this to our childrens , well thats the same thing.The only people you know who saw Morenz are very old people , just to give you an idea Morenz was the father of Maurice Richard's wife ( dont know the word for that ).So people who have seen Morenz were old like richard or older or a little bit younger.Its getting old and since video didnt exist , yes we need to remember him as a great player and all , but hockey was soooo differant , i dont talk about differant in the way 50s or 60s or 70 s were differant , im talking about VERY VERY VERY OLD HOCKEY righjt there , so we just have to remember him but we cant compare him.I tend to say he was one of the best of his era , but thats it , its impossible to rate among other player while its possible to do it even if its difficult with players from 80s ect...60s...


anyway the retard is gonna go to sleep.

The list is very interesting...However its very subjective...

Top 100 statistically?
Top 100 valuable players to their team?
Top 100 pure talents?

All equally great questions..

I grew up watching Gretzky play and Orr was before my time....I cant imagine anyone being better at the game than Gretzky was , however a lot of my elders swear by Orr..I respect them...From my generation no one is better than Gretzky..

So, everytime the Hockey News posts a 'greatest players of all time list', that list should be based on the visual recollection of the youngest person in the office..... good plan...

lol..serious question to Chris..

When they are making that list, what is the criteria??

-stats
-winning
-talent

or some formula that takes everything into consideration

Thanks

I don't think it's any of the above. Greatest is very subjective and it's very tough to do, albeit a fun exercise and each person will have their own equation that makes up "greatest" to them I imagine. Whether you are a math guy who uses complicated formulas for adjusted stats to measure Joe Malone against Joe Sakic or you are a guy who looks at 2 similar players and values that one of them won a Conn Smythe over the other. I think it's always fun to do lists like these if for nothing else than they create not only debate, but usually someone will say something like I remember the playoff year so and so had, etc and thus it also creates a little bit of time where you can remember some good times you had watching this great game of ours.

It's a little from column A, a little from column B..... but usually it breaks down to a long series of arguments followed by a vote..

It's a little from column A, a little from column B..... but usually it breaks down to a long series of arguments followed by a vote..

So when someone make his list , he should also give HIS DEFINITION of greatest.

I can't speak for THN but mine is a combination of things so vast you would need Professor John Frink to decipher it. Actually it's basically what Gruven said, but I will say that I obviously weigh something like playoff performance or being a complete player higher than if someone can stick handle through 20 players. This is why you will not see someone like Pavel Bure who spent the entire time waiting for an outlet pass when his team was shorthanded, on my list. Some one-dimensional players like Mike Bossy were so dominant at that dimension that it trumps the fact that they weren't as complete a player as others, but everything's subjective man.

Mike is a cool guy though , like i said in the other thread , we won his *tournament* when i was a kid and he chilled with us after the victory in the lockerroom it was magical.We won a trophy , and we were drinking 7up in it like it was some champaign lol
Bossy was a sick scorer , 8 consecutive 50 goals season i think ?.

To exclude all the old timers just because you have not see them play is a diservice to the past. All you can do is use your best judgement based on the information available (stats, awards, other peoples accounts etc.) To put together lists like these are fun and to crticize somenone for doing so does not make any sense.

A couple of thoughts:

I think Bossy and especially Trottier were more important to the Islanders run than Potvin. I would certainly move Potvin down and Trottier and Bossy up a few notches. Espo is the product of your #1 so I think he is overrated. I watched him enough as a Ranger to come to that conclusion. Broduer and Roy are equal in my mind. You have Roy about right so Marty should be bumped up, I think. Never a big fan of Leetch, especially his defensive play, so I do not think he belongs on this list. Sacrilege coming from a Ranger fan 1 day prior to the retiring of his number. Messier definetly needs to be put ahead of Potvin at the very least.

Agreed.

All very valid points sir.

I must admit I am a big believer in Potvin, he IMO the most complete defenseman save for Orr, post-expansion. He hit, fought, scored, led, he was incredible. Yet I don't have a problem at all if someone wants to put Bourque ahead of him, that's what makes these lists fun to do. Leetch was really close to being left off and there are a bunch of great players that I couldn't find room for as well but he did win a Conn Smythe and I don't think he was Housley-bad defensively. In terms of Messier I actually think I overvalue him a bit by putting him where I did.

I think bossy,trottier and potvin were all a big part of the islanders dynasty.If you lose 1 of the 3 you don't win all those cups its that simple IMO.You really need a good defenseman to win a lot of cups in a row.

Did you ever see them play?

I checked the list 3 times in astonishment that Mats Sundin is not on your list...I think its a travesty to not include him not only top 100 but at least top 50 of all time...He tied the Rocket last night in career goals, he has been one of the most consistent goal scorers in the history of the NHL..17 years in a row with at least 20 goals...

he needs to be included for sure..

imo

Yeah , I saw like 12 games or so.
Ok not a big sample , but bigger than 95% of the people of my age ( 25 )

Remind me again of how I should put Mats Sundin on a list ahead of Mike Gartner who's not on my list. Or Luc Robitalle. Oh yeah, now I remember, because they were compilers on teams they never elevated. I think Mats gets an extra push because of his international play but it's not enough IMO.

The last year these three players played together was 1986. You were 5. And they were well past their prime. So, by your own criteria, you have no right to have an opinion on these players. By YOUR thinking, they don't even exist....

thats just stupid...A team they never elevated???Mats Sundin took the Leafs to the semifinals on 4 occasions..

I'm sure he's very proud of that. He probably wears the semifinals rings to all banquets.

Still , now in the league you'll often see team not making a conferance final for a long time.
Seriously can't hate Sundin.Can't put the blame on him.
Saying he's top50 is ridiculous and homer but saying he's a choker is equally ridiculous.

Sundin has singlehanded raised the Leafs from basement dwellers to also-rans!

So I havent gone through all the players on your list but do all of them have Stanley Cup Rings??I doubt it..

Seriously I think you are a good guy and made a good list but you cant honestly leave Sundin off the list...Just admit that its an oversight , and move on ....

Ask 10 respected hockey people and they will ALL have Mats Sundin in the top 100 if not in the top 50..

I have no doubt that you know about hockey, but you need to learn to accept that your view of hockey is not necessarily correct. In fact, in most cases, there is no particular view that is correct. Everything you've posted is based on personal opinions, and you've done nothing but bash people who reply with their own, if they don't happen to correspond to yours.

Just be more respectful of people's opinions, and stop acting like your opinion is the be all and end all of hockey opinions, because it's not. This is a peaceful forum, with the exception of the healthy game day trash talking, etc.

I still don't understand the arguement for having him on there when guys like Robitalle for example aren't even on the list. Sundin has never even won an individual trophy let alone a team one.

you can spin it anyway you want...Putting Cam neely on that list??HOW..RObitaille should be on that list too...

Mats Sundin, when its all said and done will be a HOF and should be in the top 50 of all time great players..

End of discussion

Cam Neely was a sick power forward.

had only 395 career goals

I would put Mats on this list.........

I don't see Mike Modano on there either - how is he left off?

How is Ron Francis only 89th??????

How is Tretiak even on this list????

yeah but in only 726 games which is excellant

Mats Sundin belongs in the top 100. Not the top 50. I give him top 100 based on the fact that most of his accomplishments were done without the benefit of having good wingers. Some of the best players (statswise) in hockey would have been nothing without their wingers. Mats never really had much help, which makes his career even more outstanding.

Hmmm - you managed to get Ray Borque on your list tho...........the only team he elevated was one he was dealt to at the trade deadline.

He deserves to be on this list.

Yeah but Sundin isnt one of the best top 5 forward while Bourque certainly is a top 5 defenseman , its not the same league.
I think Sundin is somwhere between 100 and 90 , IMO.

Good enough...If Mats plays another 3 years say, and wins a Stanley Cup and pads his career numbers I would think he would move up even more ...

Also the wingers could work both ways...Would Jari Kurri have all those points without Gretzky???

Sundin is a great player , but isnt a top 50 of ALL-TIME.

Just the fact that I would put him in my top 100 show you how I respect him.

Hey 100 of ALL-TIME

How many players have played Hockey?? a bunch.

Its a big honor.

Before Serge says it............


Why isn't Kyle Wellwood on this list?