This hand is similar to bcd30's, but just a check up.
Villain is new to the table, I think it is his first hand.


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $259.45
UTG+1: $237.50
CO: $197
Button: $310.85
Hero: $201
BB: $200

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T T
4 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $18, Hero calls.

Flop: 3 Q J ($36, 2 players)
Hero ...

what is our line here?

Uh, do you beat anything?

Fold. You were calling to hit a 10 or an OESD on the flop. You missed.

Sorry I miss pasted the hand, didn't wanna give full action... edited.

I'm check raising with AQ/KK/AA on this flop, and check/folding with hands I'm likely calling to hit a set or overpair with. JJ/QQ/JQ I'm probably calling and donk leading the turn.

villain dependent hand. How often is he 3betting solid hands, how often is it trash. this is typically a c/f

i prefer c/f but will occassionally b/f based on villian

depends on villain, but its often a c/f here. If hes a solid regular who you know is going to be 3 betting light i take a different line on the flop.

Nothing wrong with c/f here.

Any read on the villain? I often 4-bet pre here in a BvB battle if I think he's playing his position even a little.

Yeah I 4-bet pre here as my standard line. I need notes or stats telling me not to 4 bet, not vice versa.

Yeah, I mean, you're not really gonna get called by any hands that you dominate too often, but you'd really like to make him fold things that he could reasonably RR you with in this situation like AJ+, QJ+, KJ+ and those types of hands that we flip against.

I 4-bet as a default here too.

Unknown villain ... $25 and dump UI with action
Known villain: act accordingly

Care to explain why?

We're OOP and crushed by his range after this horrible flop. We know nothing about his hand, so let's start randomly bluffing into him?

Villain is new to table has a lot to do with it. I think he has as much chance to have any of 15 random suited connector hands or PP<TT in play as he does AA KK QQ JJ AQ AJ. Something about "first hands" ... people always play them hard, especially when they feel under attack in the BB right away.

I think you're gonna lose a lot of money if you think that new players are going to start randomly bluffing other players that they know nothing about. I think more often than not, when playing against people that you know nothing about, people tend to err on the side of caution.

This is an easy c/f. It's an easier 4-bet pre as well.

I think this is a pretty easy c/f on the flop.

Without a read on the BB i'd 4-bet this pretty much all the time as well.

4betting here essentially turns your hand into bluff unless you actually plan on calling an all-in

not a fan

lol desmoines.

Wasn't there just recently a thread on exactly that?


http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...114986&st=0

Eh, I disagree. In this situation, I like 4-betting to get rid of a lot of unpaired overcards that would have a ton of equity against us that he could reasonably RR with. If I'm 4 betting, I am probably calling the all in. I don't think it's a bluff since we're never going to fold out better hands, just hands that shouldn't fold like QJo



Umm, this thread is nothing like the OP.

desmoines please stop being a retard

what does he shove that we beat? AK is the bottom of his range and maybe maybe AQ. Do you think villain would shoves 7s 8s 9s? If AK is the bottom of his shoving range, our hand does not look good here which is why i'd rather 4b 57o here than TT.

I was talking about PF with TT in SB with PF 3 bet ...

ass

just honest

seriously -- you're an ass

MATT!

We wouldn't want to 4-bet to fold out QJo.

We're not flipping coins with QJo, since he's only seeing 3 cards if we see the flop, we've got a significant equity edge over him, and unless it's super tough to play our hand on the flop, we don't want him folding.

I'm not aware of any tools that help us answer this sort of question. It'd be nice.

The chance of any two cards not making a pair is 2/3.
(42 choose 3) / (48 choose 3) = 0.66

So speaking strictly of pairs and assuming he folds flops that he misses, we're indifferent to whether he calls or folds when we bet the pot. He gets 2:1 from the pot and it's 2:1 against him making a pair.

He's going to find some other good reasons to continue (e.g., straight draws) and we're not going to know when he's outflopped us. So I think I'd prefer that he fold.

One of the nice things about AK is that if we raise with preflop and continuation bet on the flop, and the villain calls us on the flop. we can still be drawing to 6 outs. On the other hand, with TT if we continuation bet on a flop with an over, we're likely drawing to only two outs.

Ok, that's fine. I propose a counter solution.

Make sure the flop doesn't have any overs.

Absolutely. Always have a goal for what should be on the flop. If we don't have a goal, how can we meet it? FWIW, there are no overs 1/3 of the time.

(34 choose 3) / (48 choose 3) = 0.35

Are we stacking off on a non-overs board?

Yes.

And Zach, I'd prefer he folds because while he holds 2 overcards, he also has position and there are 2 more overcards that he won't hold that will often flop. The frequency with which we see no overcards will not be high at all. You're right about the 5 card agrument, but OOP, I'd just prefer to get him to fold that since it'll make it difficult for me to win the hand.

Bingo, agree completely

Does SB vs BB come into play here? Is it effecting our ranges.

only if he 3bets a ton

I think it does, whether or not he's a super active 3 bet type of guy.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the caveat of it being too difficult to play postflop.