Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $58.25
UTG+1: $49.25
CO: $50
Button: $70.70
SB: $21.85
BB: $46.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J J
Hero raises to $1.75, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $6, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: K 5 K ($12.75, 2 players)
Hero?

Villain here is 25/20/3. What's our line here?

Any history? I probably C/C the flop and then C/F turn if fired at again.

Not really, I've only got about 30 hands with him. Haven't seen anything out of line that's required me to make a note on him.

I don't like this. I can't imagine that the hero ever has Kx here since he'd probably 4 bet with AK fairly often and wouldn't show up with KQ, so he's gonna get a lot of bullets fired at him if he starts c/cing bets, especially with that FD out there.

I'm trying to decide what I like best here.

Do we think check/raising this flop is a spew? It's 6-handed so his 3-betting range preflop in position might be fairly wide and include some hands we are ahead of like 88, 99, TT, AQ? Also, he might be a nit and fold a better hand thinking we have a king...

I thought about this, but I'm guessing most villains don't auto bet this turn without QQ+ I think maybe AQ fires again and bluffs, but 99/1010 I think are more willing to check down. I might be wrong though. If I'm villain I'd bet AQ a decent amount on the turn and then probably check behind 60%ish (complete guess) with 99 or 1010. If I was quickly called on flop I'd bet again with 99 and 1010.



I don't know if it's a spew on the flop so much as when we get called we have a bloated pot OOP that we are basically surrendering or then spewing on the turn. I think that range you gave is fine but C/C is better than C/R.

Maybe Acid will come up with something I like more.

The only other lines I can think of are check/call flop, lead turn (which I like)

Or check/call down which is likely going to be calling his all-in on the river if he bets every street, in which case, I like check/raise flop better if we're going with this hand.

The villains stats kind of line up with a decent aggro sLAG type person. I run at like 24/19 for the most part and my total AF is a bit higher than the villain here. So, if he plays preflop anything like I do, it means that he's probably reraising with a decent range of hands, but would tighten that range significantly when raising an UTG raiser.

I think skillz made valid points about people not auto-betting the turn with QQ, but that doesn't mean that he's not betting a lot of other air type hands and we still can't beat QQ anyway.

I think that if the villain is at all competent, that we're gonna have a very hard time showing a profit by continuing with this hand past the flop. I'm not saying that we called preflop to set-mine, but I really think that I don't hate a c/f that much on this flop. It's not as much that I don't think we have the best hand because even tightish players can choose to 3-bet pre with AQ and 88-TT.

It's like, ok, we raised UTG and got RR'd. Obviously against a decently tight 3-betting range, JJ isn't way ahead, but it's not crushed either, so I think that calling is best. We see this flop and then we try and figure out what to do. We can't beat QQ+ or AK or even KQ if he chose to RR with those. Being OOP and it being unlikely that we don't have a K, he's probably gonna fire another turn shot with AQ a lot of the time. He's probably gonna fire again with most airballed hands as well, like if he chose to raise us with suited connectors or something. So, by calling the flop, we're really crossing our fingers and hoping that he has a med pair smaller than ours and chooses to try and show it down as cheaply as possible.

This is probably a really good example of a spot where there's a good enough chance that we have the best hand, but we still won't be able to show a profit with it because we're OOP against a fairly aggro villain.

I really think that c/f is best, not because we don't think we're ahead of his overall range, but because we're still not gonna be able to make enough +EV plays given the situation we find ourselves in.

And for the record, c/r with this hand basically turns it into a bluff.

Alright, I think I agree with Acid_Knight here. c/f.

I think they best part of his agreement is it is going to be difficult to make a profit with this hand OOP. This is because a) If he 3 betting range is really tight, (AA-JJ, AK) you are crushed on this flop. And b ) if he is 3 betting light, he is probably good enough to give you a hard time on this flop with any hand.

Hands like this when it is so important to take notes on your opponents, ect. Because a lot of the time this is not going to be a call preflop. Might be a fold/might be a raise.

whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

with how loose people 3bet, i def. c/c at least one bet. They 3bet loose @ .25/.5 right?

Players tend to play pretty str8forward in 3bet pots and once we call a bet, he's going to freeze up a lot of the times. Also, he's not turning QQ and AA into a bluff here.

I think a c/f really only applies if you have trouble reading a bluffy villain....he's just not going to mess around with you very much once you call

I didn't read Acid's post because it's long and I'm lazy but it's probably correct.

I would check fold this. What're we beating here?

Not in my experience. I find the 3-bet at 50NL 6-max to be extremely rare. Like maybe 1 in 25 or 30 raised hands. An unknown who 3-bets pre gets QQ+, AK in my mind. At 25/20 villain considerably more agg pre than your standard 50NL villain though.

Honestly given stack sizes and the somewhat oversized 3-bet pre I don't mind a fold pre-flop without a read that villain is 3-betting light. You're folding the best hand often but you make money by playing in position. Otherwise I think we basically are calling for set value. We're really only getting enough in implied odds to do so if villain goes broke with an overpair nearly all the time.

As played my first inclination is bet/fold. Against a wider range this is certainly a good flop for our hand. However getting flat called here when we're OOP is horrible. I think we have to c/f even though we could very well have the best hand.

That's the thought process I went with (correctly or incorrectly). I checked, he bet ~$10 and I shovelled.
He called (I was scared for a sec) and showed AQ for the flush draw and overs, but I dodged the draws and held up.

Shoveling here is such a massive spew. You get snap called by any hand you're not beating and probably fold out every single hand that you are beating. You probably can't even fold out QQ by shoving here most of the time.

As it is, you get called and still don't have great equity in the pot.

lol, I like with that line, you got best case scenario and were still a coinflip.

Yep, that's why I post most of the hands I do - not to get a pat on the back and say ha look how I played this. I knew right afterwards it was ugly.

idk how everyone feels about this line, but what about 3bet/folding the flop?

tough for villain to continue w/o a king..if he shovels then we cry and prolly fold...

Not deep enough for that, nor is there compelling reason to play it that way.

Took Acid a while, but he finally came up with it. Check/fold is standard. Against some villains, c/c may be more appropriate, but we have an extremely difficult time playing this profitably beyond the flop. One key that Acid noted and that some of y'all aren't...villain re-raised an UTG raiser. That probably means a premium hand unless he's a maniac (stats say he's not) or we're maniacal (I doubt that's the case).

What's a "typical" 3bet range in 6max for raising a UTG raiser? I will usually do it with AQs+ and TT+

This.

I think I'm gonna compile a book of your posts and then read them when I'm on the go. It'll be weird having them all out of context, but I don't wanna waste paper.

edit: and my 3 bet an UTG open range is: AK, JJ-AA. But I'm probably a bit tigher than many pf.

Ha. You give me too much credit. I don't post enough anymore. As for the subject of wasting paper, I used to be very "efficient" with my notebook paper in school. Typically, one page of notes for me was worth about three pages for my peers.

That's a tad tight, but it'll probably work decently in most games.