If you're playing in a home game with some regular players in a non-Casino environment. Any home game rules are allowed. Running it twice, staddles, chopping it, etc. Obviously, you're not just there to goof around, even though some other players might be. You're there to win money.

100 BB stacks, and you get it in preflop with A A , and your villain turns over K K and asks you to run it twice. Do you?

100 BB stacks, and you get it in on a 2 5 10 with J J , and your villain has A 10 and asks you to run it twice. Do you?

100 BB stacks, and you get it in on the flop of 7 8 2 with A A against 9 10 and the villain asks you to run it twice. Do you?

100 BB stacks, and you get it in on a flop of 2 5 J with A A against K Q and he asks you to run it twice. Do you?

Answers for both if you're properly rolled for the game, and if you had say 3-5 buy-ins for the night would be appreciated.

Running it twice only reduces variance, so it's really irrelevant when you're properly rolled for the game.

If I'm down to my last 3 buyins, I may want to run it twice to save myself some swings, but only in the case of coinflips, 60/40s, etc, not the 80/20s we dominate.

Can anyone explain why on HSP when the game was the 100k buyin and some players are actually properly rolled for the game, do they still choose to run it twice?

What about running it more than twice if properly rolled to avoid high to medium variance? Say 3-4 times?

It's best to be consistent: either always run it 1x, or 2x, etc.

If you're an underdog, and you want to run it 2x, then you want to run it 1x when you're a favorite, you'll look like a ________ .

Because they are nits.

it extends the drama

They're insecure and can't handle losing?

It's all personal preference, and personaly i'd never run anything twice because i don't see the point, if you don't want luck to be a factor, go play with Sklansky bucks. If you can't handle the financial implications of losing, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place.

I play home games for fun, so I'm way overrolled for them. Regardless, my standard offer is if you want to run it more than once, I'll run it 3 times or we play it out once. I'd rather there be a definitive winner.

in these situations, if you're the person who is ahead, you really shouldnt be running it twice. Bascially you're saying you'd be happy to just take your chips back and move on to the next hand.
in reality, if you have a edge like you do in all these hands you should be very pleased and ready to double up.
granted some of these are so far ahead you could run it twice and still come out with the full amount, but its silly to run it twice in any of these spots.


where i would run it twice?


I have 9h,10h and the board is Jh, Qs, 3h. and my villain holds Qd,Kh. taking away two of my outs.

You realize that running it twice or 10000 times doesn't affect your edge at all, right?

I don't think anyone should selectively run it twice based on the board. It's almost (but not quite) like selectively chopping, imho. Plus there's never any penalty in EV for the hero anyway.

I think I'd always run it twice if asked.

quote

IMO, its only best to run it twice if you`re a flip or worse. when you`re a flip, u have no advantage, and leave your current stack to a game of chance.
so run it twice, try and eliminate the variance and hopefully get your stakc back to try again...

It doesn't change your overall expectation from the hand.

Trust me. It's been proven a million times on these boards and 2p2, etc.

You're not thinking about the times that you take out 2 cards that would have helped him in the first run, then the KK goes up in value the second time. It balances out and all falls back to exactly the same expectations.

All it does is decrease variance.

ya, I understand exactly what you`re saying. There isnt really a debate here. I`m just saying that you should never run it twice if you`re ahead.

if you`re a flip for stacks and you agree to run it twice. thats fine. chances are you get your stack back.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but saying that you shouldn't run it more than once simply because you're ahead is pretty meaningless. I mean, it doesn't affect our EV no matter what, so it just seems to be an arbitrary point that you picked, and in reality it is. In the end though, that's all anyone can pick, as it doesn't affect anything. So, run it twice or 100 times at your own personal liking.

===============

An example, to clear it up for anyone else.

Say you get to the river in an HU hand, and get all in vs KK. We have AA.

Board is completely random, like 248J, where he only has 2 kings in the deck. There will be 44 cards left in the deck. To simplify, we are playing a game where we don't burn any cards (otherwise you can't express this the same way, I can explain in a minute).

Say you run the river 44 times. 2 cards win for him, 42 for us. We run out every card in the deck, and chop the pot, 1/44 for each run you win. KK is going to win 2/44 no matter what, while AA wins 42/44 times. 2/44 = 4.545454%, which is the exact equity KK has when running it once.

The effect of the burn cards only means you can't run out exact equities on the one particular hand, but since the burn cards are random and unknown, over the long run, the don't matter.

I don't think you'd say that if you really did understand.

That's what I was gonna say

Most home games are meant to be fun, so just do whatever your opponent wants. Ive thought about this some and the only time where I think it matters is when you dont have enough to buy back in if you bust(where you would want to run it twice), or maybe in a restricted buyin game where say you had 100bb which would be the max buy and there was another donk at the table who had 200bb and it would be beneficial to try to double up so that you could take the donks whole stack in one hand afterwards. I guess another situation, kinda like the last one, would be again in a resticted buy in game where you and a donk both had big stacks and you were allin with a different player but would want to run it twice just because you didnt want to risk losing 100bb and now having the donk have way more than you and taking away the power of taking his whole stack in 1 hand.

you're right. I'm probably way off on everything here. I think your line about "always running it twice" if asked is probably the best way to stay a break even player like yourself.

What the **** are you talking about?

(PS: that was out of line, and HILARIOUS, because it further proves you have no idea wtf you are talking about in this thread.)

I just want to clarify... running it once, twice, 15 times has NO EFFECT on your winrate, expected value, edge, etc. It merely decreases variance.

? out of line?? we cant make cracks at each other now? lame potatoes.

anyways, how do you run it 15 times? do you reshuffle the deck?

anyways, you do the algebra and the EV remains the same. But I still say I dont run it twice as a huge favorite. Thats how I would handle the situation if it ever arises.

maybe it doesnt matter in the long run, but who cares.

the decision to run it twice or not is usually for meta game reasons.

(duh).

Well, we certainly can, but I didn't take it as a friendly ribbing. Doesn't matter though, it's up to David how he takes it. Moving on.

Properly rolled or not, few poker players have the stomach to lose a few hundred large in a single hand.

There was no need to try and make me look stupid from his behalf. I remember an Old fcp thread about running it twice, and that the EV equals the same.

I'm not very strong in algebra, but from what i remember it didnt matter in the long term EV.

But I still would rather just run it once when i'm a huge favorite. Its personal opinion.. yet he thought it was something else and decided to make an ass comment.

so I'll return the favor.

here is a better one for you zach.


is completeing the sb with Q,8o with 4 limpers in the pot a -EV play?

I would say so, and I think DN's thread shows that rather well.

P.S. zach I blame you for the confusion in this thread.

when you wrote "doesnt matter if you run it 1 time or 1000" thats why i was like wtf? cuz it sounded like you were saying the cards get reshuffled and wouldnt change a thing no matter how many times.

anyways, /end thread

Yeah, sorry, I was just exaggerating for the sake of proving a point, but I can def see how it can be confused.

Reshuffling also works just fine mathematically, as long as everyone agrees to do it ahead of time. It's generally a waste of time, though, and it increases variance over not shuffling. We would, however, obviously need to do it if the deck was exhausted.

I didn't notice the jab until you pointed it out. No big deal. I wasn't sugar-coating, so I don't expect unilateral restraint.

Not wishing to stir any more trouble, but don't you play higher stakes(winning more money i'm assuming) than Royal_tour anyway?

He knows I'm better than break even. He's just yanking my chain. Let's leave it at that.

Personally, in a tourney I'd be more likely to run it twice if I were a dog to slight fav in the hand.
I want to survive

I've never heard of a tournament allowing running it twice.

sw?

if sw stands for "you were just being ignorant of the generally accepted rules and spirit of tournament play", then yes, "sw"

Hypothetically, collusion accusations aside, I'd like to run it twice if I were not a huge favorite - in tourney