Alright pretty interesting spot. I only sat at the table for a couple rounds before this hand. I am pretty TAG, but have raised a lot of the first few hands. Villain is 17/10/3.00/50, no notes, however we just played this hand:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $445.85
Hero: $322.05
SB: $724.30
BB: $244.55

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with
UTG folds, Hero raises to $7, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: ($16, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, SB raises to $30, Hero calls.

Turn: ($76, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($76, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: $76
SB Shows As 2s
Hero Shows Jd Jc

(does anybody bet for value on the end of this hand?)




then just a couple hands later, I find myself in a similar spot:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $508.35
CO: $402.13
Hero: $361.55
SB: $619.30
BB: $238.67

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with
2 folds, Hero raises to $7, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: ($21, 3 players)
SB bets $2, BB folds, Hero raises to $16, SB raises to $52, Hero...

Can I comment on this since I already own your ass in the IM discussion tell you what to do?

LOL @ you thinking you 'owned' anything/anybody in your life.

but yes! tell me what to do.

Damnit, now they're gonna know I'm right and I'll kill your thread!

Oh well, nobody listens to me here anyway and what I say you should do has no bearing on what you actually did. Also, it'll give the posters 2 people to argue with.


OK>.......

Hand 1, I think that flatting the flop is correct by a wide margin with the intent of folding to a solid turn lead. OOP, it'd be tougher, but with position, I think this is best AINEC. Once he checks the turn, I would almost be certain my JJ is good and I'd bet it for value/protection from draws. I guess the river is closer since we didn't bet the turn. Next time, bet turn and check river.

Hand 2
I know you thought you were getting leveled here because as good thinking players, we will not want to make the same move with the same hand twice because we think it'll be transparent. Whether that's true for other players or not, I don't really know. Here's my initial reaction to the hand.

His "bet/3bet" line is a joke. He like never has a real hand here that would warrant a real bet/3bet, like a set or a super draw. His $2 bet is confusing. It'll probably get raised, but sometimes it confuses his opponent into just calling. If he had a set, would he really risk confusing you into just putting $2 into the pot on that draw heavy flop? I really doubt it. It really looks like he wanted to act super strong by leading, getting raised and 3 betting. If he had a set and took that line, I bet you'd see a 1/2 PSB or 2/3 PSB every time. I think his hand here is some weird air hand a lot or something else where he doesn't want action, like a weak top pair hand.

The stacks are awkward, but I like a shove here. If you're not gonna shove, I just raise to like $200 or some bet that leaves an insignificant amount behind where he will know he has no FE. He will pretty much be forced to fold out any 1-pair hands, any bluffs and he should be folding any flush draw, whether it's bigger than our or not. I think that a player making this move has a set like <<<<<<<<<10% of the time and just in case he does have a set, well, we still have outs, don't we? I guess he could have a super combo draw, but I still think the $2 bet doesn't fit with that and that he's just planning this move start to finish because he thinks it looks strong.



I mean, I think there are legit arguments to be made for call/folding/raising/shoving, but you can see where I stand here.

get it in. You have a decent amount of fe vs villain here

Bet the turn on the first hand.

I think I throw the second hand away. Believe me...I don't mind 3-betting a habitual C/R with draws/air when I think they're getting out of line, but 4-betting in this spot seems odd to me. I'm very much in disagreement with Acid that this isn't frequently at least an overpair...with two pair or a set also being quite plausible. (Yes, top pair and big draws are also possible.) This villain is bad. A lot of bad villains like this look for reasons to keep playing hands. I think our fold equity is overestimated, and I don't see much value in risking our stack in this spot...if we get played with, we're probably drawing to 9 outs...and that's a lot less valuable if he's holding a set. Maaaybe we can call here...or shove if the situation warrants...I don't think this situation warrants it.

Let's factor in that this board is quite draw-heavy...so we might get called lighter than y'all expect.

Fold.

Anyone just call on that flop against opponents like this?

If it were me, I would flat call the bet/3-bet and see what villain does on the turn. If he's bad, like described, he might make the same play as hand 1. If we hit our flush, we can continue if he bets. If we miss the flush, he still might check and give us a freebie. Regardless, I call here and see a turn.

Damnit, I hate when you disagree with me because it means I'm wrong more often than not

I really think my point about his betting sequence is very valid though.

I also think that as deep as both the hero and the villain are makes a the hero's raise or shove much stronger here and I think he does have a ton of FE.

I think hand two is a committing raise. That $2 bet is meaningless to me and if it didn't happen I'd gladly 3-bet over the top of a C/R.

The $2 bet might not mean much if you look at the overall pot size etc, but he's telling us some about his hand here, and it also changed the hand a bit since BB folded to it. It did happen so I think it's a little short-sighted to ignore that it happened just because it was small enough where you don't feel it's anywhere different from a check.

I do think it's a weird line for villain if he had something big like T 8 or a set, but we don't know much about the villain except that he can check/raise with air if he thinks you're just c-betting. The problem I have is that you just caught him and he might wait a while before trying something like that again... I think he could easily have a better flush draw than us here, or perhaps worse if he has a hand like 6s 7s, either way I am reluctant to jam without more info.

If we jam, what's he calling with? do we think he calls with flush draws?

If we jam, he's not supposed to call. We should expect to fold out any 1 pair hands and draws by jamming. I mean, unless he's got the Txss combo draw or the straight draw/FD combo, he's not gonna have pot odds to continue there. We also shouldn't get called by 1 pair unless he was slowplaying a big pair until this point.