Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with [4c], [Ks], [Kc], [7s]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (7.40 SB) [8s], [2s], [9c] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.70 BB) [5c] (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.70 BB) [As] (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 22.70 BB

I ended up scooping
That was pretty cool.
MP1 had 8 9 8 4
MP2 had 2 5 6 5

Everyone should play O8.

fold pre-flop

damn straight you agree with me

You guys think so? In a better game maybe fold in this spot, but I think limping here is right at this limit. I'd check the flop though.

KKxx is a vastly overrated Omaha 8 hand by novice players who are used to hold'em, but that doesn't make it unplayable IMO. He're you're double suited with an emergency low. Replace the kings with queens and it becomes very marginal, but this is a clear limp in a loose game IMO.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
It's nowhere near marginal.
Its an easy fold in the CO
its an easy fold UTG
its an easy fold everywhere

Everyone should play PLO8. Same game (kind of), more money. I know I'm going to sound like an idiot, but PLO8 at these limits is vastly greater than limitO8. If you just wait for a good hand, they will pay you off, guaranteed.

I'm not a good PLO8 player at all, I'm just way better than these people. For every losing session, I have about 5 positive ones. These people like handing out their money.

it usually involves people sucking out like the poster here did

When you're playing against opponents that think their set of eights or their 6-high flush with no low are good enough hands with which to bet and raise the river with 3 spades on board and low hands available .... you're leaving money on the table if you don't play this hand (as long as you let it go when you miss or don't have odds to chase the 2nd nut flush for half the pot).

6 hi flush is a low...

it's a live six...i hardly count that to be a low

KKxx double-suited in a passive game is definitely playable. If you can limp with it, you should. It does have some +EV, but you obviously need to be careful with it. It's like playing high only cards, if you miss, you can get rid of it.

The point that everyone is going to make with KKxx double-suited is that it makes too many 2nd best hands, and that may be true, but if you're going to be afraid of one card in the deck when you play a hand, then you shouldnt be playing poker. I'm obviously not jamming the pot with a K-high flush, but it is worth a value bet, and just call a raise.

this hand is not playable in O8

its marginably playable in good position in Omaha Hi, depends on the other two cards.


KK23 double suited might be a limp in good position in O8.

KK47 is not not not not not not playable to any degree.

Then you're playing way too tight. You disagree that it should be played much like high cards? In a passive game with little preflop raising you should be limping with more hands. Including KKxx double suited.

wow, I can't believe I'm actually gonna agree with Absolute and KDonk. This hand blows. only play it in teh blinds. You want scooping hands and this doesn't merit that at all. Like Absolute said, KK23 DS works for a limp in solid postion as you then can at least have a nut low possiblilty along with some high possiblilty. O8 is a game of extremes, in that you want to play to either end of the extreme, prefrebally in the same hand.

Master out

I still have 2, 2nd nut flush draws. I know that most will say that the key term is "2nd" nut flush draw. 2nd nut flushes make the best hand often enough to be playable. I think the key is that the game is passive. In a loose-aggressive game, i will concede that KKxx double suited is not playable.

i think that it's also not a very playable hand because, in a passive game, you're also more likely to find donks playing any suited aces, whether they should be in the pots or not.

look, i don't mean to flame, petoria, but everyone is right--fold that junk pre-flop.

even if you dismiss the point that it makes too many second best hands, two major things make this hand terrible:

1. if you're essentially wanting only high cards to come, then your hand works in only one way (set of kings improving to a boat). having all four good cards in your hand is key in this game. that's why it's okay to play KKQJ double-suited (good straight potential also), but KK74 is no good.

2. if you don't have good enough post-flop play to fold it when low cards come, then you're playing for only half the pot. playing for a scoop is another key thing in this game, and staying in with only a king-high flush draw on a low flop was not playing for the whole pot (i'm sure--or at least i hope--that you weren't playing for the low end also with only a 7-low draw on that flop).

sorry, but i think this hand was played fairly badly, and the biggest mistake was calling pre-flop. post-flop, you were playing for half the pot and lucked out into scooping.

again, i'm not trying to flame, but you have to realize that if you believe that this hand shows that you play o8 well, you're essentially falling into the trap that all bad players fall into--they think results justify their actions.

i don't know if you've read SSHE, but in the very first chapter, miller talks about how this is the worst game for the human brain because the brain is used to adjusting itself based on results, and this is the one game where the results are completely irrelvant to your actions.

the reason good players win so much and thrive so much in poker is that bad players feed off the good results and let those good results blind them into thinking that they play well. you have to realize, this hand was a good result, but you didn't play it well.

take this as friendly advice, and good luck.

aseem

i used to play o8 in the same fashion, winning because the people were so bad that my a5 for a low on a board of 678xx was good, not even contemplating that my play is horrid. i've since reevaluated my play and believe i've significantly improved...now i just need to go and test it on the live games that are ridiculously passive

Im not demonstrating that I'm an awesome player akishore, I'm showing that they are worse. My hand isn't a premium hand, but it is marginally playable.

I don't mean to flame either, but I am the poster child for non-results based thinking. If you've read my other posts, you'll notice that I'm a tight sometimes too weak player. So please, don't lecture me. It does get on people's nerves. I'm aware that your intentions were good, but it comes off as very condescending. I'm sorry if you flame back, that's not my intention, it's just constructive criticism. I hope we can leave it at that, bc i really respect almost everything you have to say in regards to strategy.

I may be wrong, but I'm not entirely convinced that playing KKxx double suited is a horrible leak.

a couple months ago...hell, a couple weeks ago, i would have agreed with you that it's not a horrible leak. after getting my ass handed to me for a whlie, i've repaired a lot of my leaks, and that's one that i repaired. boat staying afloat for now.

its a disguisting all over the floor leak.

you only get action when you are beat on the high
scooping with it will happen about as often as chris moneymaker will win a WSOP


you got crazy lucky
fold that shit next time.

At this point it is turning in to a flame because you are so so so wrong.

It's not a creative hand, it's just a bad one.

You would have to make an unbelievable argument to get me to complete from the SB with it.

i cant believe you are still posting as this guy

ok, i'm sorry that you saw that as a flame or as lecturing--it wasn't.

aseem

Clearly this isn't true. It is low limit. Before we go completely flaming on this one, let's just stop the conversation and agree that no more posts will be made on this subject. I want this off the main board before smash gets a hold of it. I'm going to stick to my guns and you're going to stick to yours. I do appreciate your help on this hand, and I will take it under advisement. I'm sorry I got out of hand with akishore, i was just upset bc he made me feel like a noob.


[size=10][/size]DO NOT POST ANYMORE ON THIS SUBJECT, bc of possible flammability.

I wanted to post some math to outline why I think Ks Kc 4s 7c is playable in a loose-passive limit O8 game, and actually now, I'm not sure whether playing it is +EV or not.

Odds of flopping K x x = 12.23% (0.52% is quad kings, 0.87% is kings full)

Odds of flopping xs xs xs = 0.95% (0.26% is As xs xs)

Odds of flopping xs xs xo = 11.77% (2.14% is As xs xo, 0.74% include a pair)

Odds of flopping xc xc xc or xc xc xo = same as for spades.

So that means that roughly 37% of the time, you will get a flop that hits your hand in a reasonable way. I think that if you play decently postflop, you can play all of these flops (on average) for profit if you're in a game where both lots of people will see the flop, and where you can expect to get paid off by worse hands, even though you're often (but not always) only playing for half the pot. I suspect that in this type of game, your average profit should more than offset the losses you incur from calling preflop and missing, and make the hand +EV. But, I'm not positive that this is the case, and if it is, I think it's probably not by much.

As a side note, I calculate that if you hold Kx suited in a ten-handed game, and you flop two of that suit, the odds that any of your nine opponents started with Ax suited in that suit are 36.87%. So you would need to make decent profit when you do hold the best flush draw in order to offset the losses you incur when you run into an opponent with the A-high flush draw.

So I think that playing the hand would probably only be profitable in extremely loose-passive games. It may overall be better to just avoid playing it entirely.

If you disagree with my conclusions, or my numbers, or if you don't think this is a good way to evaluate the hand, I'd be happy to hear why. I'm relatively inexperienced in Omaha H/L, and what I have played has mostly been PL rather than limit.