Hero brand new to table.

villain :I've seen him a few times, played with him a couple times. He seems kinda crap, typical abc beginner who assumes he is among the best at his table for the stakes.

2/3NL

hero 200.
villain covers.

hero is BB with Jh9h

1 limp, villain limp in MP2, c/o limp, button limp, sb complete hero check.

6 players ( pot $18)


flop
10h,8s,7d


sb check, Hero bet 10. 1 fold, Villain raise to 25. folds to Hero. Hero call.

turn
8h
hero check, villain bet 60, hero goes all-in.

who loves it?

We know the risks of any paired board with a Villain who is acting like the Pairing was Yahtzee. There are a couple of ways to lose this hand. Absent a Read this MAY be a call. Don't fall in love with OESFD. What are we putting the Villain on to make the Push? Some sort of Combo Draw? I dunno. The push is high risk/reward because we're gonna get called.

I can't figure out what villain can call us with that we beat.

"I'M ALL EEN! ALL EEN! I'VE GOT A STRAIGHT! STRAIGHT! WITH THREE HEARTS!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAXCPNnKtoY

correct me if i'm wrong - but is your intent here to try and fold out the same hand? you said villain is ABC, which means when he raises our lead, there's a good chance he's just straightforwardly raising the same hand as ours. he probably doesn't fold it much anyway, but maybe he does every so often because of the board pairing. if he calls, we're freerolling. if he's got a boat, well at least we're not dead.

i'm ok with it so long as you've decided you're not folding to any river bet villain makes. because then this decision is value neutral compared to calling down against the boat, while marginally +EV against a str8 by very occasionally preventing the possibility of a chop outright.

Pretty sure the raise is for value. From villains description and since its live I wouldnt expect villain to fold KT here, seriously.

Not when we hit a card like this on the turn. Typically I slow down. No way I fold this, but wth one card to come, I like the smooth call here better.

OOP, I 3bet flop given your read that he's not that good. Generally when a bad player shows interest in a hand (by raising) I like to put him to the test right then and there.

who plays live cash games often.... looks like money raised his hand here.

LOL at some of the replies.. some of you have to get out of the house and play some live games more often

Pot odds, I flopped the nuts, not a draw.

cobalt, you cant seriously put him on a boat here can you? given the description and the live factor.
he is 100% of the time not betting the pot with a boat on this board

Nomad, that went through my mind, although i thought strongly on 9,6s,

however, his more likely holdings in my mind are 9,10 9,8 9,7 A,10 K,10

Money: you're money

mtdesmoines: a smooth call here leaves us with 110 and a 200 pot, which we are playing OOP, so a brick hits the river and then what?
if we're beat, we're beat by a boat, which will be value betting the river, so do we call/fold? do we call/and call any river bet?

what about the possibilty that villain is holding 10,9 for TP with an OESD, what kind of value can we get from him if the river bricks and he is left with 2 pair, no kicker?

Trystero: i thought about it, but it came to HU, and i knew if i 3 bet this guy he would back away really quickly. 3-betting is not that common at these stakes in live games, unless its nuts vs 2nd nuts
here, my 1st reaction was he wants to take control of this pot. So i let him, with the intent to trap.

Yeah, we smooth call with the intent of losing our money if need be.
The only hands improved with that turn are the the right two pair and a flopped set.
I don't think we have either one of those hands, here.
You MIGHT be looking at a chop with a free roll ...
The $110 will go in easier as a bet on the river than with the CRAI with most villains.

If i'm freerolling, i want the money in on the turn.

The way the hand played out..... limps around, blinds check.. flop, BB throws a probe sized bet out, MP2 makes a small raise.
turn pairs the 8 on a 10,8,7 flop. BB appeared weak on the flop, and checks the turn. MP2 fires out a pot sized bet.

maybe its just me, but this hands doesnt make much sense for MP2 to have a monster.

1- MP2 is shit. But thinks he's good. He' going to put me on a hand or two.
2 - what would MP2 think Hero's holdings are.
10,J, 10,Q, K,10, 9,10, 9,x,
any variation of 2 pair, 10,8,10,7 8,7.
The turn makes 2 of these variations into a boat.

he might also think 8,9 which makes trips and an OESD.

If you're freerolling and a blank hits the river, the money is coming in anyway.

If you hit your flush, it would be unconnected, backdoor and difficult for the villain to detect.

Yeah, I'm afraid of T8 and 78, but I'm not seeing a monster in the closet in this situation. We're not deep, and we're not very impressed with villain, right?

If you think he pays you off with a profitable range on the turn, then I trust that. In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd fold those hands to a reraise on the flop.

given the size of the pot, my position (BB) and a 3-bet, I think he folds at least half the crap holdings we can assign him.

Ie: any TP good kicker, like J-A
might even fold a OESD is our 3-bet is too pricey for him.

In my mind, only hands we can get paid off on the flop 3-bet are ones that have filled up on the turn. 2 pair, set.

The idea was to trap the turn. I was almost 100% positive that when i show weakness he will fire the turn hard. I took a chance that a 9, or J. or maybe even a 6 might kill some of my action, but a 6, could actually create some if he has a hand like 9,10

If his holdings are somewhat marginal and I smooth call the turn, and then value lead the river, i probably don;t get paid off for much unless the river actually improves his hand.

by shoving the turn, i leave the option open for him to think I'm also on a draw+pair and am trying to take this pot now.

Personally, I think the 8 might have killed a lot of my action, because a c/r on the turn might lead him to think i stuck around with one.
however this is live NL, where everyone likes looking like a hero. Only thing is, back to the 3-bet flop. i have to be 80% sure at the least, that he has enough of a hand to call the 3-bet, or even 4 bet me all in.

I think strongly this raise of his was to find out how strong i was. meaning he could throw away his hand to a 3 bet, or he could take it down on the turn if i showed weakness.

I play nothing but Live Poker.

Yes, we Flopped the Nut Straight - then the board paired and the Straight is no longer the Nuts - we have an OESFD.

I think he has to have at worst a Combo Draw or at even the made Boat. Apparently I am wrong or else why the Post.

Is there a reason he can't think you have a draw+pair on the flop? You'd get two cards in that case. And the board pairing doesn't help the draw.

If we're being super tricky, then we can shove the river with our "missed" draw. I'm not hearing that this level of deception is necessary, though.

Observations:

Royal doesn't seem to be looking for advice here becuase it basically looks like he's just telling a lot of people they're wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I see in his replies.

In live games here, shoving the turn will get you called by worse hands, but it will also fold out many worse hands. I much prefer a call/donk the river or something like that then the CRAI on the turn because I think that you will get called by worse hands, but you'll also find yourself against a FH where you got A LOT of chips in very badly.

You really should reraise the flop here almost all of the time. You're OOP and if the turn doesn't get bet (which you can't know) then you're not going to be able to stack him. I prefer a RR to like $65 or something on the flop and then you can probably get most of the chips in on the turn and the last few on the river. If we were in position, we could get cuter with this, but you REALLY REALLY need to play your big hands faster out of position because you risk that the villain will check behind on the next street and you won't get enough money in the pot. Another reason to do this is that there are already 3 cards to a straight out there. If he did have TPGK or something, there are A LOT of scary turn cards that will kill your action.

I get tired of hearing people say that. Royal is explaining his thought processes. He is explaining how he views the hand. Others may disagree with how he views it, but so far, no one has actually made him change his mind.

Sometimes, players post here because they want to see how OTHERS view the same situation. Even if Royal thinks some of these posts are way off base, it's still helpful simply from the standpoint of "Now I understand better how OTHER players may view this situation." A well reasoned and articulated post would probably be well-received.

I'm not blindly saying that and I have nothing against him. I made that statement becuase that's how it feels as though he's coming off in his replies in this thread to me.

I'm not saying that he isn't listening to other opinions here, I'm saying that his posts are kind of discounting the other ways to play this hand and the other peoples reads of the sitution.

Agree with most of this (even though my feelings are still hurt over that KT scorching I just took).

I have a love/hate relationship with flopped straights. They're as good as they're going to get. I usually push them pretty hard oop.

We're not getting cute, we're 100% sure villain will fire the turn when checked too. i dont know why so many posts here are sooo straight forward, bet raise, shove, fold. like unclehoot said, I'm not arguing i'm correct, I'm arguing my point of view in the hand.










Villain had A,10.. money was 100% correct, and actually even finished his post with "seriously".. why is his thought process so far from the some?

don't ever leave that game

Because you're really counting on someone to make a bad play to ensure that you get paid. I think that's the reason why his logic is further from others.

While I inherently know that most players are just idiots, I still play hands to get the most value from them assuming that they can play the hand well becuase if I can get the money from a person who's playing well, then I can certainly get it from the people who are playing like idiots.

If you think for some reason that reraising the flop will cause him to fold, then it's fine to flat the flop. But if you're really 100% sure he'll bet the turn, then why won't he call the reraise on the flop? What if the turn is a J? You're not gonna get more action. The board is as harmless as it's gonna be on the flop, so if you're not pegging him for a monster, that's when you should try and get the money in almost every time if he's dumb enough to call with one pair.

I really didn't have a problem with the turn c/r for any other reason than if he checks behind, you can't stack him. I'm not worrying about being beaten here and if I am, it's no big deal. I just really think that playing hands as if the players were at least a little comptent is a better approach than assuming they're just stupid.

i agree for the most part - but i think it comes down to Royal's description of villain here.

"crappy, ABC sort of regular"

this is the kind of dude that raises TP on a flop like this to "see where he's at"
if he only gets called, he's betting that turn again to "protect his hand"
if he gets raised on the flop, he folds a lot (not always) because "we told him he's beat"

that's not what i thought at first - but it's evident that's what Royal was thinking

I really don't want to sound like a condescending 2+2er, but I think you need to do a little self-examination here. You won a nice pot. Was it because:

1. You had a Cunning Plan which trapped the villain.
2. The turn card cooperated and the villain called off all of his chips because he's an idiot.

If you think it's more than 10% A, then you're deluding yourself, imho.

You don't think the hero told the villain he was beat by check-raising the turn?

This made me think of a crazy experiment I ran on Full Tilt -- playing one session with the goal of being all in heads up at least 10 times. I did it at a .05/.10 table and tripled up once and then lost two buyins the second time. The point was to maximize action and profitability when we know we're ahead. The danger is that when people catch on, they try to trap the shit out of you. Question in my mind is which has the greatest overall EV? Giving and receiving tremendous action or taking bites out of people?



Cunning Plan.
LOL

I think it's more than 10%. Sounds like Royal knew his villain pretty well.



Sometimes villains don't listen. That's what we like.

Exactly.

3-betting the flop and c/ring the turn are both quite strong lines. I don't know why you're poo-pooing one and exalting the other, Royal.

Personally, I think c/c turn and shove river is actually a reasonable way to play this...though I don't hate the other lines. The reason I like it is that it's confusing. When villains are confused, they call.

No, players like this get a read on the flop and stick with it. If you crai on turn you have a draw, it's that simple to them.

Edit: I actually like a 3 bet all in against this player as well though

Ya, i'm pretty sure i did tel him he was beat with the c/r turn, but i also scoop an added 60, + gave him a little more reason to call if he has any draws. draws that are already dominated by my hand.



I'm not poo-poo'ing it, I just felt strongly that a 3-bet flop course would make him lay down a hand that he would bet the turn to protect.

basically everything that nomad said, is how I viewed the current situation

"crappy, ABC sort of regular"

this is the kind of dude that raises TP on a flop like this to "see where he's at"
if he only gets called, he's betting that turn again to "protect his hand"
if he gets raised on the flop, he folds a lot (not always) because "we told him he's beat"

that's not what i thought at first - but it's evident that's what Royal was thinking

Actually, I like you as a poster, but you sound like a tard here, or is this a joke post that i'm missing?

The title "I play cash game, just amazing" Is a reference from High stakes poker, sammy farha, when he gets all in with Hellmuth and hellmuth shows A,10o. So, not because I think i'm amazing. if i thought that, I'd be a 2+2'er

I also lost the hand. The turn card didnt cooperate. he called my all in, and the river paired the 8 again, giving him 8's full of 10's

The turn card didn't cooperate because he wasn't drawing dead? I don't want to have to tell a veteran poster some crap like BBFIDTS and don't be results oriented, so I won't

I really think you gotta look at hands and say to yourself "is his hand going to look better than it does right now?" and act accordingly. If he's got 1 pair on that board, you should try and get as much money into the pot at this point for no other reason than it will be inherently harder to do later in the hand.

I think arguing for a turn c/r is almost only valid if you argue that he won't call a flop 3-bet but will bet the turn and that's the only value that you'll get out of the hand. If you're gonna stack him, he'll probably do it on the flop if it's based on his hand strength. As Cobalt reiterated and I'd already said, I much prefer calling the turn bet and donking the river because the ensuing confusion will get you called by a lot of hands that shouldn't call.

David's post was very good and he was just mocking how condescending a lot of the 2p2ers are to people who post silly hands.

It wasnt a bad beat, i wouldnt have even posted the results if it wasnt for his post.


Also, I'd like to think there are no silly hands when it comes to strat. If this hand is silly, why are so many replies skewed.

saying, I'd 3-bet the flop unless you know he would fire, but i'd also just call the turn and donk bet the river, but i think i'd 3 bet the flop more often blah blah.
where is the sound strategy here? and why is it so much better than a crai on the turn?

If i 3-bet this flop and villain folds, I'm sure i'd get a bunch of replies that would suggest, i just smooth call on a rainbow board with the nut straight, and let villain hang himself on the turn etc etc..

If there is more value in 3-betting the flop, and leads to me stacking off on the turn, than I'd opt for that strategy, i just dont see it. Since I actually heard villain tell me after the hand played out "I didnt think you had much of a hand, I thought you were on a draw and expected me to fold"
he tanked for about a minute and finally coughed up the chips. Was it because he just forked in 60 more on the turn? or would he have done the same if i 3-bet the flop? I guess we'll never know.

I like you as a poster, too.

I didn't like the way my post came off emotionally. That's the only reason for the 2+2 comment; I was trying to soften it a bit. I stand by the content, though. I think you're giving your line too much credit.

i rarely post in NL strat (because when i play NL, it's almost exclusively live, fwiw), but this hand really interested me, and speaks to why i feel extremely comfortable playing NL live but am a marginal winner there at mid stakes online. i prefer to play a trapping style of NL/PL games, and that simply works better live than it does online. this hand kinda shows why.

basically, i think that royal's line is ideal for a live setting against the sort of player he's described, but would be horrifically bad online in anything but microstakes. i think that this is a pretty important distinction. the game simply plays differently in different settings, and oftentimes certain types of live players who don't have online counterparts (i know exactly what sort of guy you're talking about, mitch) need to be manipulated with seemingly unorthodox lines.

at tables where 3 bets means the nuts or 2nd nuts (and there are lots of them, but usually they mean you should find another table in that casino, lol), there is no way mitch can 3bet the flop here against a semi-thinking opponent if he wants him to stick around. the average half-tard, live, marginal winner can sniff something like that out, but once he feels like he's in charge of the hand (that's what the flop is for, durrr), he's sticking with it till the end. any future raises by the hero on future streets will simply be seen as desperation, and i think shoving the turn is the perfect way of manipulating that kind of tendency without risking seeing a river (which came, but whatevz) where you're looking at an obviously dead hand in a huge pot and want to shoot yourself. i'm willing to bet that he pretty much instacalled with A10 when you shoved, actually.

it's worth saying, though, that this type of guy simply doesn't have an online counterpart. online, there are generally two types of villains that might show up here: one that you should 3bet; and one that you should trap or trick as long as possible and hope to god that he doesn't catch up to you because he's going to know any 3bet flop or turn raise is a hand that crushes his. mr. live half-tard would know the former, but not the latter, and that's a fairly common half-tard to encounter.

edit: in a live setting, thinking we're behind often enough to care about it on this turn would be a ginormous leak, unless the villain ONLY ever raises sets or better (this is another type of guy that you'll see more of live than online).

A few other things.

I wasn't saying that this hand was silly, but I feel that with hands like this, the back and forth is more of a subtle argument over small aspects of the hand than an in depth strat discussion. Boiled down, you're playing an idiot who'll stack off with TPTK and you flopped the nuts and you just need to know how to get his money into the pot, which you obviously knew since it got in there, so what are you looking for here? I mean, would you have really posted this hand if you didn't lose? You obviously played it fine. You had a live read on the situation that we can't have in the forums and you acted accordingly. You got the guy to put in some of his stack drawing to runner runner and then you got the rest in when he had 4 outs. What more do you want?

I think that Jamie made a good post concerning the reason for not 3-betting. I know that you'd made it before as well, but I dunno, his just was a little more concise so it stuck out in my mind. I also agree with it for the most part, but a lot of villains just don't let go of their hands and if they're hanging on when the turn comes, they're definitely hanging on at the flop.

FTR, I don't think anybody would criticize a flop 3-bet here unless it was some ridiculous interval that was like pressuring him to fold, like 4x his flop raise. There's never anything wrong wtih fastplaying the nuts as long as you're fastplaying other hands as well.

Since the whole gist of this hand seems to be a live read on the guy that was "he can fold top pair to a 3-bet on the flop, but if I just call, he will think he's got the best hand, which I belive is rarely better than 1 pair" then I can live with that in this situation. Most competent villains should be checking this turn behind like every single time if they have any sense of what's going on. That's the situation that you can't afford to have and that's the reason to 3-bet the flop.

Well played. The villain is calling with a number of hands here because our line looks so odd. Besides, if he got a boat I'd plan on hitting my 2 outer anyway.

I mean... I'd CRAI the turn just from the 10h 8h here. The fact that we already have the straight just makes it sweeter.