Party Poker $0.10/0.25 Blinds 6 players:

Hero has been playing normal aggresive game but been felted once already (by the villian, he had nuts I had second nuts)... Villian is a very tricky player, has been strong in most hands and so far had the best of it in showdowns.

Hero button $29.15
Villian SB $ 50.65

Hero is on the button & holds Q 9

Folds to Hero, Hero raises to $0.85, SB calls $0.85, BB folds.

Pot: $1.80
Flop: A Q 4

Villian checks, Hero bets $1.50, villian raises to $3.75 (pretty standard play for him on my C bets), Hero calls $2.25

Pot: $9.30
Turn: Q

Villian checks, Hero bets $5.75, Villian pushes all-in, Hero ?

If my math is correct, you are getting about 1.8 to 1. So if you win here 36% of the time, you break even. I would say you win here more than 36% of the time. That's enough for me to call here.

What do you put him on? How big is his range?

He may be putting you on an Ace and trying to scare you off. Or he may have an A,x with a decent kicker and trying to bet you off the flush draw.

However, for me, the pot odds dictate the play.

Take care,

owise1

Your bet represents a scared ace. His bet represents a strong ace, like AAQQJ or something. You're ahead enough to make this call.

Wow, this is an ugly spot. Any clue the range villian is check raising the flop with? It sounds like hes raising you light but how light, K high, any pair? Also how often have you been calling his raises?

Not knowing much about the villian or the table dynamics, I really don't see him doing this with a hand you beat. Unless Q8 or lower is in his range to call preflop. If he had us beat on the flop why does he check raise the turn. If he was bluffing the flop, why give up the lead, hope we bet, and then shove in. I don't think our turn bet really shows weakness that he would shove against that alone after giving up when we called the flop.

I think we need to look at our own range given the flop and turn play. Hes got to give us credit for a hand to call the flop right, we haven't been chasing him with like a gut shot on this flop have we? The range of hands we just call with on the flop is probably the weakest of A's, I'd be reraising with any decient kicker since he appears to be raising us light. KK and JJ probably flat call, maybe even a few smaller pairs since it is basically a min raise. On top of that a hand with a Q in it, like the one we actually hold. Of that range what are we betting the turn with? I'd probably bet the turn with any A I didn't raise the flop with and maybe KK simply for value. Any pair JJ or smaller I'd be trying to show down since I couldn't stand a raise, so I'd check behind with those.

So, If hes paying attention to our range, he usually have an A, KK, or a Q here most of the time. If he had an A on the flop he might check the turn since the Q hits a lot of our range, but then why would he push afterwards. I'd say hes making this play with a Q or a complete bluff. But, as I said eariler if he was bluffing the flop why check raise the turn? It really doesn't add up for a bluff so I say its a Q. Unless hes calling us with Qx from the BB were probably behind.

I call.

Do you think he is going to check raise the flop with middle pair when there is an A on the flop?

Unless he has AQ (which might have 3bet preflop anyway depending on how aggressive he is) I think you are ahead.

Ok, I don't understand why there is a discussion here. You called his raise with middle pair on the flop, then hit one of your 2 cards on the turn, and now you might fold?? If you are going to consider folding here, don't waste money with the flop call. This is an obvious call cause you got yourself in this spot to begin with. But next time, just fold on the flop.

We called the raise on the flop because he had been raising our continuation bets on a regular basis, so this doesn't necessarily mean a big hand. The flop call was not wasted money just because we are considering folding, we had a reason to call the flop based on past hands. On the turn we are given more information about the villians hand there for our decision can change. Just because we thought on the flop our hand might be good doesn't mean its automatically good now that we improved. We only have 35% of our chips in the middle, we still have plenty left and plenty reason to fold if we think we're beat.

What is villian pushing here that we beat, for everyone who is saying call?

I didn't realize this was a tournament.

how often have u been c betting? ive seen plenty of players at these limits (on AP though) that are stubborn enough that if they try to get you off your hand once and you call, they wont give up and try it again. i'd probably lean towards calling here.

"Your bet represents a scared ace. His bet represents a strong ace, like AAQQJ or something. You're ahead enough to make this call."

Against a tricky opponent here, I think the villain shows up with total air enough to make the call alone.

Or with an A. I would think that after a c/r on the flop, the villain would likely love that card on the turn and if he was holding a Q, bet it for value, since you've called the flop c/r. I think check raising again, he likely is trying to use that card as a scare card.

Either that, or you're paying off 44.


But, as someone responded earlier, you've called the flop c/r, and now you've hit one of the 6 cards in the deck that allows you to continue in the hand. If you're not prepared to go with this hand now, then you need to release to the c/r on the flop, and c-bet when you've got a stronger hand where you're willing to let him hang himself with a c/r in the future.

Uhm, unless villain is a super aggro monkey, I think we have to fold.

FYP

Care to discuss why?

Well, for me it comes down to three things:

1. Does villain expect hero to make a thin bet with something like A9 on the turn, when he got c/r on the flop?
2. The double c/r on a dry board isn't a bluff very often.
3. How many Q-X hands we can put villain on in his pf range.

Then do you still like the line of bet/call the flop, and then bet when checked to on the turn.

Is there ever a time that you'd just lay the flop down if his c/raises are standard against con't bets?

Since the OP is classifying the villain as tricky, do we think he'd be c/raising here again on the turn with a Q, or since he knows we'd likely slow down with just an A, wouldn't he bet for value?

If we're not prepared to call a push, is there a reason to bet the turn there at all, and if we think we're ahead, hope to get bluffed on the river?

Who the hell double check raises with a real hand? Seriously fkin stupid.

call. you're ahead here more often than the pot odds require.

sure, you could be crushed here on the double c/r v. 44 or AQ. but i don't think any other Qx plays it this way with another draw showing up on the turn.

here is why you can easily be ahead:

scenario 1: villain has air
- he c/r flop, standard as you say against your cbets thinking that if you don't have an A you're gone
- you call so he puts you on an A. the board pairs the Q, no reason for you to put him on it so him betting out again is only going to elicit another call from you (in his mind). but that's a great scare card and there's no way you can call a turn check-push unless you have a Q, which he's probably not putting you on.
- he might even put you on just playing position, since a lot of people would check behind on this turn for pot control with just an A.

scenario 2: villain has a strong A
- normally it's not such a hot idea to c/r and build a bigger pot with just TPGK but since he c/r you a lot, he can expect to get calls from weaker Aces often enough that this really is a way for him to maximize value
- Q shows up on turn. he thinks "maybe he called me with a Q, maybe he floated me, maybe he has me outkicked." he could bet-fold, but he could decide he's not folding this hand so the best course of action to maximize against your range is check-raise again. it gives you a chance to bluff if you're just playing position, it gives him a shot at a free/cheap showdown if you're willing to check behind, and it often folds out stronger Aces and sometimes... even a Qx.

ok, here's what went down....

My honest read on the villian was that he was making a play with a possible scared rag ace but representing he had a Q, I called his all-in bet and he showed A A

Simple truth is he outplayed me during this hand & throughout most of the session (although he was hitting a lot). Could I have layed this down had I not already been felted by this guy? Possibly but doubtful...

Thanks for the reply's...

I didn't mean it like that, like oh we can fold and we still have an average stack. It was supposed to point out that its not like we already put $20 of the $30 we started with in and only have to call of $10 getting 5-1 odds. We have a tough decision because its such a big raise.

I was right ... villain was on a strong ace.