PokerStars Game #12445033231: Tournament #63155530, $3.00+$0.40 HORSE (7 Card Stud Limit) - Level IV (60/120) (12 ante) - 2007/10/05 - 01:49:47 (ET)
Table '63155530 1' 8-max
Seat 1: stav1961 (1275 in chips)
Seat 2: jonesjr19 (1331 in chips)
Seat 3: Jessie Dad (2999 in chips)
Seat 4: Mr Obvious59 (104 in chips)
Seat 5: MyMoolah (1364 in chips)
Seat 6: mattydman11 (1726 in chips)
Seat 7: Cappy37 (1436 in chips)
Seat 8: drpshotqueen (1765 in chips)
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to stav1961 [Qd]
Dealt to jonesjr19 [3d]
Dealt to Jessie Dad [8s]
Dealt to Mr Obvious59 [Jd]
Dealt to MyMoolah [4h]
Dealt to mattydman11 [5c]
Dealt to Cappy37 [Qs 9d Ah]
Dealt to drpshotqueen [4d]
jonesjr19: brings in for 18
Jessie Dad: folds
Mr Obvious59: folds
MyMoolah: raises 42 to 60
mattydman11: folds
Cappy37: calls 60
drpshotqueen: folds
stav1961: calls 60
jonesjr19: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to stav1961 [Qd] [2s]
Dealt to MyMoolah [4h] [9c]
Dealt to Cappy37 [Qs 9d Ah] [Ac]
Pair on board - a double bet is allowed
Cappy37: bets 60
stav1961: folds
MyMoolah: calls 60
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to MyMoolah [4h 9c] [4s]
Dealt to Cappy37 [Qs 9d Ah Ac] [Qh]
Cappy37: bets 120
MyMoolah: raises 120 to 240
Cappy37: calls 120
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to MyMoolah [4h 9c 4s] [7c]
Dealt to Cappy37 [Qs 9d Ah Ac Qh] [9h]
Cappy37: checks
MyMoolah: bets 120
Cappy37: calls 120
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Cappy37 [Qs 9d Ah Ac Qh 9h] [6h]
Cappy37: checks
MyMoolah: bets 120
Cappy37: calls 120....

Middle stages of a Horse SNG.. I've played with villain in many of these as well as mixed-game tourneys.. He's solid and I respect his play.

He pairs his door card, but it's a freakin' 4, so I can't imagine him raising it up PF in Stud Hi with a pair of 4s.. How hard should I be pushing aces up here? I slowed down considerably, even on 6th when I made 3-pair, giving me a whopping 2 extra outs on the redraw if he did have trips.

Am I costing myself value here or saving myself bets? I'm more concerned over the long run here.. These are turbos, so no one is truly deep stacked in these. I've way underrepresented my hand here, should I be raising on the turn and river, with the double bets? Because I'd be essentially putting my tourney life up for grabs with that betting line. I actually had 1/3 of my stack in the pot as it was.

One final note: table was chock full of elephants. No one was folding to the typical Checky-style aggression method of Stud Hi. Should I be jamming on every street? Waiting until the bets double? being cautious because he could be raising this PF with a pair of 4s and a A or K kicker?

Well, a 4 went down on third. If he's a solid player he should not be raising 3rd without 444, AA4, KK4, being that there is an A and a Q yet to act.

Obv when he pairs the doorcard you know he was not rolled up, and split 4s is a pretty slim chance - would he raise 3rd with [A4]4?

Interesting that he just calls on 4th when you pair your A door, but he raises 5th when he pairs. Clearly he's not given you credit for trip Aces. Makes me think he has [AA]4 to start. The action certainly makes sense.

I think reraising 5th, or raising 6th is OK. Throw in one extra raise to see how much he really likes his hand. Even on 6th when you've made 3 pair, all he sees is AA and he's not scared of that. Call down if he comes over, unless you totally trust that he would not do that without having you crushed. Even then, nothing is crushing you that hard I think. 6 outs to fill on the river is 7-1, so there's enough money there to call 6th and see 7th.

That thought crossed my mind, too. He was playing with his foot on the pedal like me (raise and CB, or fold PF), so I couldn't discount that he had something along those lines. Still, no good player is probably raising with so many to act behind him with a 4 showing. That's just *begging* to get re-raised. Watching his play at previous tables, I'm certain he knows that, too.



Yeah, I was really expecting an insta-fold. I didn't toss out the double bet (who pairs their door card and wants everyone around the table to muck for a bet 1/2 the size of the pot?) intentionally to get the action, and then was mystified when I got it. He does seem to have a bead on my hand here, either through my obscenely erratic betting pattern, or a superuser account or something. This *really* made me start to ponder trip 4s again, because I couldn't envision another holding he had that would let him call when I hit a pair of aces.. I mean.. besides aces up, what can I usually have here that he's ahead of? Is he racing me to a lesser two pair and hopes I don't get there when I could easily already *have* aces-up here?

As for the three-pair, I knew I had enough outs to call it, but it made me feel about as warm as fuzzy as when you are getting 4.5-1 in unlimited hold 'em with pocket 3s on a QQK board.

Good post

i 3bet obv

the biggest mistake you made on this hand was not 3betting 3rd street. just calling on third, unless you do that regularly with made big pairs to set up a raise on fifth, is super predictable and makes it very easy for him to play against you on later streets. also, if you 3bet third and got capped, you can be 100% certain you're up against AA44 or KK44 and go to town. see how cheap street aggression pays off on later streets?

as played, with the dead four out there, you really need to define your hand here and figure out if you're against AA or KK/44 or trips with the one remaining four. if you're ahead, the raise is obv for value and you're likely going to be paid off most of the time unless it's KK he's got down, which he may find a way to fold. if you're behind, which isn't true that often, 3betting is going to allow you to draw to a 4outer with no dead cards profitably by inflating the pot. if he caps your 3bet, you can assume you're up against a four often enough to fold 7th unimproved--that is, unless he's terrible, in which case getting reads is impossible and i probably just call down as you did.

so i 3bet obv.

At this level of play ($3) with low antes, it's stupid to over-represent your draws or big early-street upcards too much, as you will get action without a made hand and you will find yourself investing too many chips trying to gather information and summarily playing catch-up for the rest of the hand- more often than not, building early pots and then surrendering them when your hands don't improve, or paying off subsequent streets with marginal hands because you're priced in. (you're giving him advice that applies to a higher level game where people actually fold and comprehend sophisticated representations. That doesn't exist at the pissant levels where you must play a fundamentally ABC game with selective aggression to beat it)

As a rule, I almost never lead out or reraise to gather information when holding an unmade hand on 3rd, unless I'm in a pot with very weak players that are prone to folding. I usually check or call. If they check behind me, I get a free card with and can reevaluate 4th (which is a good thing when you have an unmade hand). If I feel the need to make them define their hand or if there are three players in a pot and I think the middle guy is weak and I want to squeeze him out, I check-raise.
This methodology has a few things going for it.
If they are bluffing, the C/R very well may get them to lay down a bluff or a weak hand and I can take down the pot right there. If they are genuinely strong and tax the pot for another bet, it only cost me one bet to find out (rather than leading and then re-raising, which costs two bets to gather the same amount of information.)

If I am in the "calling" position, unless the opponent is very weak and I know he will slow down on 4th unless he catches, then the raise doesn't really define my hand much since there's a good chance you're building a pot that you may have to toss on the next street if you don't catch.

Of course, latter in the tourney when the blinds represent a more significant portion of the stacks (or in higher caliber games where people are actually capable of folding hands) some of this concept wouldn't quite apply, but it would in this situation, IMO./

Stud isn't NLHE. While there is definitely a place for aggression, it's critical that you be way, way more selective with it than you are in other games.

Thank you all for your two cents on this. I'm still kicking myself for under-repping my strength and then somehow getting gun shy. This was definitely a case of me being up against a player I knew well who I see in these games regularly who's usually cashing alongside me, so I gave him way too much credit here.

He turned over TTx in the hole for two pair, tens up, which starts him out in the hand with TT4, and making two pair on 5th street.

I'm pretty torn here, because I played this hand darn perfectly for the situation until 5th street. I'm pretty sure he ditches when I pair my ace, even if he puts me on 3 broadway cards for my starting hand, he's still not much of a favorite, I needed to press the action once the bets doubled. Sick that I was given back to back chances to C/R on double bet streets and didn't pull the trigger. As Checky pointed out, the dead 4 that was discarded on 3rd should have been enough for me to go positively bonkers aggressive from 5th on.

fwiw, AQ9 with one dead out has 8 outs 4x against x4/x and 6 outs 4x against 1010/4. both of those spots are functionally coinflips considering redraws. by taking charge of the hand, you win the hand if he doesn't improve, you ensure action (read: look like an omg bluffer) against donktards that don't realize that you're actuallly making a standard play, you can give up instantly if he makes 2p before you pair up, and all at the cost of little to zero equity. win/win, even against players that aren't good at stud at all.


the main thing i want to get across is that 2-3 overcard hands are a LOT better in stud than people through 10/20 think.

I'm not sold on this, not in this hand. You need to KNOW that villan is on Jacks or less before you think your overcards are worth playing. Then I can see where you are going, if you're gonna play it, 3 bet 3rd to see how much he likes his hand. Of course you may not like the answer you get, and then you get to pay 4 SB to see 4th with your rainbow no pair hand.

Isn't that the hold'em equivalent of a tight player raising UTG+1, so you decide to 3 bet your 77 or QJs just to see how he reacts?




Thanks! Flattery will get you everywhere.

yes.
nope



indeed