effective stacks are 100K

you Open UTG with KK to $1800. folded around to the BB who has a very tight image. He reraises to $7000. You decide to flat call.
(Pot-$15,100)
Flop-QJ6 rainbow. the player checks. whats his hand range? bet or check? you decide to check.
(Pot-$15,100)
Turn-8
Board is now Q J 6 8 with 2 diamonds. The tight player now bets out $17,000. Fold, Call, or Raise? You decide to call.
(Pot-$49,100)
River-6
Board is now Q J 6 8 6. Pot is $49,100. The tight player bets out $40,000. Call, fold, or shove?


honestly, this isnt a joke. what do people do in this hand? all 4 rounds of betting, tell what you would do. i no this hand was on HSP and all that, but i still think its a very interesting hand.

Reraise preflop to $25k. Puke if shoved in to.

See, I really didn't understand how everyone got on Mike about not calling with KK here. (Disregarding the 2/7 game). You can't beat anything in Phil's reraising range at the flop. Let alone the two streets of betting that phil played like a set.

I check the flop

Fold the turn.

Never see the river.

It's really simple. Hellmuth and Matusow play a ton together. Matusow knows that Hellmuth is tight for the most part. He even said during the hand that Hellmuth almost never makes that big river bet without a hand. Hellmuth's hand looks 100% like a set of Qs here. Matusow can't beat it, so he folds since all he beats is a bluff anyway. There is no hand that Matusow beats that Hellmuth value bets in this manner.

What I don't understand is why Matusow does not reraise preflop. If the guy has aces the first hand of the night, then it would have been a bad night anyway. They're playing the 2/7 game, and Matusow said he was thinking about it, but he wasn't. Phil played the hand exactly like he would have played a set, but it's stupid to put him on a set because he played it exactly like he would have played a set against someone he knows. I know Phil is a tournament moron, but he's smart enough not to basically tell Mike he has a set.

Also the fact that Matusow was only playing 100,000 for the whole night and telling people about it influences the hand. If you're only on one bullet, don't tell everybody.

lol roberts i thought u sat in tghe 3/6 game.

lololo

- Jordan

This hand makes me mad because of all the people who think Mike's an idiot for folding.

I thought that too when I saw he posted this in 2+2.

He doesn't reraise preflop becuase:
He raised UTG and Phil is tight and reraised him from OOP in the blinds, so he's seeing a flop first
His hand is a little disguised becuase he didn't reraise

Just becuase Phil plays the hand in an apprently straightforward manner (if he had a set) doesn't mean that he can't have a set or won't play a set this way. It's not that hard, it's like:

I have a strong hand and he think's I'll be tricky so being straightforward is actually being tricky.

Okay, I asked Roberts not to say it, but you'll all figure it out anyway. This was a hand I played last night. I had KK. I folded, but was concerned about it. Roberts convinced me it was a standard fold, probably without even calling the turn bet. I agreed with him.

Glad I saved that river 40k.

lolllllllllllllllll


yeah since im i am all about making folds right

I think this is a little high; I said around $20K.



I think if we play preflop differently, the entire script of this hand changes. This is scared play, and I understand it, but it's scared play.



We're not sure because we didn't define by re-raising PF.



Exactly.



Add some zeeeeros.



I don't think he was an idiot, but he got himself stuck in a bad spot because of his misplay PF.



I understand that play, but if you have one bullet, you need to play this as straightforward as possible. If it's AA, or if you get run down, so be it. But you can't be this weak with one bullet in play. It's just giving away money.


Anyone want to PM me with the results, since I didn't see this?

Most of your advice here seems bad. He doesn't need to reraise preflop. He doesn't need to bet the flop since it's an absolutely terrible flop for him and he's WWWWWWWA or WWWWWWWWWWWB after the flop. The same applies to the turn and river. I really like the way he played the hand. He correctly figured that calling on the river would be burning up money since he only beats a bluff - a bluff that reraised preflop OOP against an UTG raiser and then played the hand 100% like a set the rest of the way.

How do you not figure out that Matusow folds here? Also, since they had the 72o prop going, that's of course what Hellmuth had.

I don't think Matasow's scared, I think he's playing ranges. I think he would have been ok getting a lot of chips in at the flop and willing to accept a beat to AA except he got the 2nd worst flop possible for KK. Against phil's range (not considering the 27 prop) he's absolutely crushed at the flop.

QFT

2nd worst flop? This puppy is the absolute worstttttt. If an A came it's an easier laydown andddddd you have 6 outs if Hellmuth tries to slow play his "set."

WA/WB is usually a situation where betting isn't in your best interest. Keep the pot small becuase the whole idea is that by betting, the hands that you're crushing will simply fold and the ones that crush you stick around in what has become a bloated pot.

Why do you keep saying "scared money?" Yeah, he brought one bullet. It's not his last $100K and I'm sure he could borrow at the table.

Tell me one single hand here that Hellmuth has that isn't a bluff that Mike can beat. Calling the turn is fine becuase by checking the flop, you're inviting him to bet the turn. Hellmuth is OOP, so he's showing a lot of strength. This isn't 1/2 NL. Different logic applies. You can most certainly call one street and fold the next even though the cards change nothing. He's getting information as the hand goes on. By the river, he feels that he has enough info to know he's beaten.

You say that you win becuase you play the hand properly. You win a small pot by playing like you advocate since you're beating a bluff, which you made him fold anyway. If he has what he's representing, you just bloat the amount that you lose. How is this a good play?

Actually you're probably right. I was thinking QJ10, but you're probably right.

Yeah, all of the flops like QJT, JT9 and those kind where there are straights possible are terrible. This one is almost as bad becuase it's not AS coordinated, but just as scary since Hellmuth's range here is usually almost always something like TT+/AK so Matusow can't be happy obviously.

Yeah but this is Phil Hellmuth. He might be able to think like that if his brain didn't overheat all of the time.

The guy doesn't even know the odds on really simple hands, he's really a disgrace.



It actually is his last 100k, and probably isn't his to begin with, that's probably already one loan for the night. People loan him money so he can play in these games and be on TV. The guy is completely busto. He's really is scared money too - he even said last year on HSP3 that he had never played 300/600 before, and was very nervous. If he had one bullet, that just adds up for bad day.

Sigh.

Zach?

I'm with you.

nm

I like the way Matusow played it. And he can't call that river ever. I think he played it perfectly. With the 2-7 game on, he could consider calling the river longer though. Flop check is standard.

Talking about the specific hand, Matusow said (as a reason for thinking it could be 7-2) that Hellmuth doesn't like to re-raise QQ from the blinds. I have a hard time believing that Hellmuth makes a lot of re-raises with AK or AQ from the blinds if that's the case.

Also, Matusow mentioned how Hellmuth only fires large river bets with the nuts or close to it.

With that information, I think Matusow took the perfect line here. The flop is ugly for his hand based on his previous knowledge, so he checks knowing that Hellmuth has to fire almost any turn. Hellmuth does. Matusow calls for around what he would've bet on the flop. Now he has extra money in the middle and the knowledge that Hellmuth won't bet a river without a monster.

This all seems right.

Also, as to "finding out more cheaply" on the flop, that doesn't apply here. We're not playing LHE where the bets double on the turn. If Mike checks behind on the flop, the pot size (and presumably bet sizes) remain on the same smaller scale once the turn arrives so now he gets to make it to the river and gain more information for that same price.

I think that Phil gives up a lot on the river here. A number of factors went into his bet that included:
1. He couldn't win the hand otherwise
2. He got very favorable card on the river for the range that he was representing
3. He probably correctly read Mike's hand as a vulnerable 1 pair hand that couldn't stand a lot action

FWIW, when the hand took place, it really looked like Phil was thinking hard about what to do (between betting and giving up). I've seen him think that long and then check and give up as well as make the play that he made. From Mike's perspective, he probably thought it was more likely that Phil was gauging the strength of Mike's hand and just deciding on how much to bet.

I think without the 2-7 game, Hellmuth gives up on the river based on the way Matusow talked about his play. If that's the case, the line Matusow took enabled him to win more when he was ahead and lose the same amount from behind.

For sure he is to far out of position to out play the other but why give a free card you have two kings and a sweet board checking gives up everything He should have force folded himself mucked right then. He gave up a draw and a six and even a full house and what does he see in the other player? Continuation betting that is all because Mike? gave up on the flop Why does the pot size bet at the end have any meaning? He could have just said thank you. I would not put this Phil character on anything over kk and a flop bet would have proved alot I don't go for the set thing What? he has three queens now because you went and gave him infinite odds No I go all in on the flop or muck to a check at least that would throw a tight imaged player off for next time if he is truly tight; and also why wouldn't he fear all the calls you could have 86.

I can't read this. Can we get a hand converter that can convert posts like this to a legible form of English please?

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. NH SIR.

If your changed avatar causes The Romo to have a bad game this week, I will ask Zach to ban you!

I agree wholeheartedly.