Sorry if I am formatting this wrong but I'd like to know your guys thoughts on this hand:

$200 buy-in No Limit table, blinds are $3/5.

I (Hero) have about $1100 behind.

The other big stack (Villain) has about $1250 behind. All other stacks are between $100-$400.

I have 8h9h in early position.
I raise to $15.
Six callers, including Villain and Donkey, both behind me.
Flop is 7h10dJd. Bingo.
Because there are seven people in the hand, I value bet the nuts for $50 expecting a raise from either AJ, 10J, diamond draw, KJ, KQ, etc.
Villain calls.
Donkey goes all-in for $25 more, not enough for me to re-raise.
I call, Villain calls.
Turn: 10h.
I bet $100. Villain raises to $300.

Call and check dark! WOOOOOO! You always have two outs

theres like 750ish in there, and we have to call 200 more

i think its a definite call here, maybe even a raise depending on reads, although a flopped set is possible, i think a naked 10 is possible as well

im calling here and reevaluating the river

Call mode. This is AT usually. When he gets called, he'll slow down.

I actually like a C/R with this flop with this many players. You've got to assume someone's gonna stab. If you lead out, lead out for more, make it look like you're C-betting AK. It'll look like a standard c-bet and you're more likely to get raised that way. Also, get the "SEAT CHANGE BUTTON", you don't want the other big stack on your left acting after you, you really wanna pick your spots to battle this guy, since he's the only one at the table that can hurt your stack.

Your turn bet is way too small and puts you in a very awkward spot.

I think this is a fairly straight forward reraise situation. On a flop that draw heavy, how come he's not reraising with 2 pair or a set? It doesn't make sense. I think you have way the best hand a HUGE majority of the time here and I reraise to get more money into the pot and protect my hand.

So am I supposed to tell you guys what happened or what? The last time I posted in here I got flamed for something but I can't remember what.

I like to give people a full day to comment before revealing results.

I don't think anybody would be upset if you went ahead at this point, but you probably won't get any more unbiased feedback.

No, post the results, I'm interested.

David's right, you just have to wait for about a day or so and then nobody cares.

Ok, let me get this straightened out. At my game and at every other cash game ive played at, is that you can re-raise an all-in even if the raise is $1 more than the call. Somebody fix me.

Also, why raise from EP with suited connectors?

This is a terrible rule. In a LHE game, if the all in is more than half a bet, you can raise it.

In a NL game, if the all-in doesn't constitute a full legal raise, you can't reraise it. Your cardrooms is totally f-ed up if they let you reraise when you bet $14 and someone goes AI for $15.

As for raising with suited connectors in EP, it's a good play as long as you play well post flop. Obviously you don't do it everytime, but mixing up your game is crucuial.

HOH

harrington on holdem? what does this mean?

It means the answer to his question is in volume 1

Ugh.

HOH: Expert Strategy on TOURNAMENT No-Limit Hold Em.

A TOURNAMENT workbook.

Cash games are nothing but tournaments infinitely stuck in the deep stack phase. In fact, most of Vol 1 is directed at having deeper stacks than you normally see.

*sigh*
I really can't believe that you think this.

The thing that defines tournaments is that the blinds DO go up. There is pressure on you to play hands. HOH is a great book for tournaments and has some overall good poker advice (mostly about things to pay attention to) but they are VERY different from cash games.

You saying that "cash games are nothing but tournametns stuck in the deep stack phase" is basically like saying "cash games are like tournaments only different" since you're taking away the main thing that defines tournament poker.

I argued this rule a lot (I dont play in any cardrooms, as I'm 20), but unfortunately theres not much you can do when the "floor manager" is the house owner and he's interested in making pots as large as possible so he can rake them more.

can we get results? i'm very curious

But it's important to understand why they are different and why the advice on raising SC from EP has nothing to do with the fact that the book is aimed at tournaments.

Would you like me to say tournaments with infinite rebuy times as well

They're a different monster... but most situations for +EV and -EV on cash barely differ from equity calculations in a deepstack phase of a tourney.

Then don't quote a tournament book and just explain why it's good to raise suited connectors from EP on occasion. It's so much more straight forward and your advice can be understood by people who haven't read HOH or any other books that advocate raising with suited connectors.

you love to hate me

You come off horribly on this forum and are very short, as if you know it all and the jokes on us. If you really believe that you have this much knowledge and want to post on the forum, why not put full coherent thoughts down and help out the community.

I've read HOH too. Good series of books. Coming into threads and saying "HOH" is not helpful in the least.

This is very wrong. Do you see why?

You cannot make money in the beginning of a tournament. You can gain chips, but the value of the chips is fairly insignificant in the start of a tournament. Doubling your chips does not double your equity. In a cash game, essentially it does since doubling up means that you have actually turned a profit. The money is very far away and there's a massive difference between making +EV decisions in cash game where each chip is a representative dollar amount and making +EV decisions in the beginning of a tournament where the chips have very little value at all due to the graded payout structure of a tourn.

Chris F. says the same thing Temporary Nuts is saying: the first rounds of deep tournaments are lots like a cash game.

I tend to agree. I think there's more need to mix up your play in a cash game, potentially, since you may be playing the same opponents at the same table for much longer.

Casinos with restricted buy-ins and online games are not the complete picture. The World Series of Poker main event starts at 200bb. Lots of games are played much, much deeper than that. It's not at all unusual for the median stack size to be 500bb in an underground game.

And they are considerably different animals due to stack size.

You're right. A quick double up will do a lot more than double your equity

I would agree that they are alike in the need to mix up your play. This is facilitated by the fact that you have a lot of chips in relation to the blinds. Aside from that, I think there are many many differences and paramount among them is the fact that in a tournament, you still have to worry about going broke and losing your investment where in a cash game, if you take a beat from a bad player, you can reach into your pocket and rebuy into what is still a +EV situation for you.

How so?

Ask DN

Why are you wasting everyone's time posting this garbage?

Ferguson on tournament vs. cash:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tips-arch...uson&tip=14
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tips-arch...uson&tip=15

Ugh, do I have to explain everything that's such a wild tangent from the OP?

Doubling your chips early in a deepstack tournament gives you a much greater true equity than what's calculated. Sure, there's still a long way to go, but the extra playability you gain from having an advantageous stack allows you even more maneuvers, widens your starting range (which is gold for players with strong post flop abilities, i.e. small ballers like DN), and allows you to take more chances against short stacks early, allowing the potential for your stack to grow to sky rocket.

Theoretically in cash games your BR is infinite and you'd take every single +EV situation that you ever ran across, no matter how marginal. Unfortunately, in the land of reality, most player's BR's have limits, as well as their emotions. Most of the time when you sit down at a poker game, you have a maximum number of intended buyins already set in your mind, so you should treat the game like a deepstack tourney in order to walk away with the most amount of profit on every occasion.

But I digress... raise SC in early position a decent portion of the time. In fact, never limp with them, raise or fold. When you enter a pot from EP you should almost always be raising. If they see you've done it with SC on a showdown, your aces, kings, and AK will get a sexy amount of disrespect. If they see you've done it with aces or kings, your SC will be treated with more respect than they should have.

Or you could just leave the HOH comment stand, because it's all explained in there and any player seeking advice on poker should have read that book a long time ago and would already know the answer Or as most the form would say "pretty standard."

I don't really tend to take tournament strategy and use it as my basis for cash games, even if there's a half a chapter where the author says "sometimes in cash games.."

Quiz question pertaining to chip EV vs. tournament EV.

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...p;hl=first+hand
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...p;hl=first+hand

Whether or not I actually agree with your equity in a tournament argument (there are actually good arguments to both sides, (I can't find the 2+2 thread on it) on whether you actually double your equity or not when doubling up early) the post you made here is a good post. It is good becuase it explains to other posters (who haven't read those books) what you're talking about. That's the whole idea of posting here. Posting "HOH" is worthless. The post above is not becuase people can learn from it.

I disagree with this thinking. If the competition is at all competent, the hero is in deep shit when he starts making plays he knows are -EV. The villains will run the hero over until he's broke.

Whoa whoa whoa... I wasn't advocating making -EV plays. I might be dumb but not stupid. I'm saying that in reality, you can't take every +EV chance...

FYP

Pottymouth

Do you mean becuase nobody plays perfectly and you'll unknowingly pass up +EV situations or because emotionally you'll be affected and pass up on what you know are likely +EV situations?

In reality, you CAN take every +EV situation that comes your way, but due to a number of factors, you probably never will.

There is a lot of back and forth in this thread relating to whether doubling up early in a MTT doubles your equity or not. It is a great thread and regardless of which side you like, you'll support for your argument.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0#Post3886585

Pretty much yeah. This is a strat forum. Explaining everything is what we do.

This is flat out wrong, anyway you look at it.



This is a better post than the rest of your random sloppy posts (explanation over an internet forum of your points is sort of necessary, we're not mind readers, if you don't want to take the time to explain, don't bother posting at all), but you're advocation's don't make sense.

Like Acid said, "The pressure is on you to make moves and decisions in a tournament." The blinds are going to go up and put you in a precarious situation. In a cash game, you can sit and wait until you get blinded out of the game and just reload, you never half to play a hand if you don't want to. Saying the beginning of a deep stack tournament is like a cash game is only half true. The very fact that you are playing a tournament makes the two very different. There is infinitely more pressure on you in a tournament setting, no matter how deep it is. I guess the beginning of a deep stack cash game with infinite rebuys is like a cash game, but as far as I know, said tournaments don't exist, and in fact, that is not even a tournament - that is cash. The two are so dissimilar that HOH books have absolutely no basis on cash games. Proof? The fact that Harrington is working on two new HOH books - specifically for cash games. Why would he if HOH V. 1-3 represented cash as well as tournaments? 99% of reasonings from V. 1-3 are baseless in cash games.

I understand the argument about raising SC from EP and you shouldn't be limping them - very good points. But you are quoting the wrong source. This is pretty much the Cash Game forum, so quoting tournament books doesn't get you far.

Then it just a matter of what we arbitrarily define as 0. I mean, are we calling folding kings preflop an expectation of 0? I guess it is for that particular hand, but the decision negatively affects our expectation overall.

Consider your hand with the jacks. If you determine that your opponent has a range such that a call gives you a marginally positive expectation, folding the jacks has a negative affect on your expectation.

Trying not to lose our last buy-in in a cash game is playing scared. It's better to go broke playing your A-game unless you are much better than your opponents.

So after all this back and forth....What happened ???



-Dan

Results don't matter.

Dogmatist