everone has at least $300
hero has $500

half the table limps i limp on the button with 10s 7s

flop is Ah Js 8d

it checks to me and i check my gutshot

turn is the 9s

this was my absolute gin card

the sb ( who overplays his hands) bets out $45 he gets called by three people.

what's my line here?

MMMMIIIIIIINNNNNN-raise.

Agreed. It will bloat the pot to maximum, and Q-10 will most likely come out of hiding if it's out there.

I'd probably make it 300 or just shove. It looks sneaky to shove, and you'll get called all day by stupid two pairs.

What's the difference? You're never folding this hand on the turn (I hope). I think Minraising is stupid, there are a ton of awful river cards that can come up and put us in a precarious situation. Any Ace, Jack, 10, 9, 8 and even if we make our flush we're in a bad spot because it's very, very possible that someone has better spades. CHARGE THE MAX!

Push. You have way too many callers in there. You are risking your stack if someone has the nuts Q-T but they would have raised with the spades out there if they made the straight. In the event that someone does have Q-T, you still have outs (Any Q, all spades).

Just my take. Why let everyone see the river? If you min-raise, they're probably all coming with you to the river. Your pot is already good.

Nope. This is a perfect storm multi-way pot. There are too many people interested in this hand -- we want to keep them all around for the ride, and get this sucker huge -- many stacks make heavy pots.

Anyway, maybe two pair is going to get antsy and re-raise our min-raise. If no one re-raises, then no one is strong enough to pay our all in anyway. If someone pushes hard, then we spring the trap and shove / call the shove. I take my chances if there's a QT out there (it can't be sooted like us, since we hold the T already, so nobody has us dead dead dead) and if there is, then I have to rely on my redraw. If we're beaten here, we're beaten. But we're filling the pot and making sure everyone can stay in. Also, the min-raise is going to smoke out some more chips, and chances are we get another $90 dead money in before the pushing starts, if it does.

Here's the reason why I call this the perfect storm: I think with SO MUCH interest here, there's a ton of outs that the bad guys could be holding against each other -- draws are everywhere here, I bet. The good news is: if that is true, then they're all stealing each others' outs like crazy with this particular kind of action. This is prop bet time. Bet fifty bucks the river is below a 6 AND it's red. And when that blank hits, then the bluffing starts ... and we clean up by shoving the river after they bluff. We'll pick up the bluffs and the two pair(s) that has to/have to call(s) our river shove.

definite raise

I would bet the flop if it was checked to me, but I'm pretty aggressive. As played, make it ~200 on the turn, pray for someone to shove over you.

It's very wishful thinking that they're all eatting each others outs, and a river is going to be a red 2345 or 6. I think I'm pretty content with raising and getting it all in here with anyone who wants to rather than letting someone out draw me on the river when there are 5 people in.

I know I bitch about "slowplaying" but this is one spot I think min-raise and slowplay can be effective. It's a very special situation. And I *DO* believe that they are eating outs like mad(hell, we hold a ton ourselves), and that it *IS* +EV to let them draw here.

I don't minraise cuz I hate minraises and I think we can get more money in there from all the people anyways.

I make it $165ish.

In this spot I'd prefer betting 180 and getting 1 call than betting 45 and getting 4 calls; dead outs are just as dead in the muck, more-so in fact. If we are confident someone will re-raise our min-raise allowing us to follow up shove, then the min-raise is a good line. I'd probably pop it to 200ish and hope for the two pair call, rather than hoping for a re-raise over my 45. But maybe I just like the illusion of control.

Without anything more specific here, I'm just going to say raise.

i pretty much went with the min raise. i made it $125. and was called by the flop bettor and the first guy that called. the river was an offsuit Ace. the bb checked the next guy bets $200. hero?

Agree x10. At least one person will call a bigger bet out of the 4 (most of the time), and I'd much, much rather be heads up than 4 handed.



This is why slowplaying/minraising is a problem. Now what do you do? I guess you call and pay him off and hope he just has trips, though I doubt it.

Putting yourself in unnecessarily tough situations to pay off someone or not is just not +EV, or is it good for the heart.

Calls

i thought villains all had 300?
anyway, you have to call.
we weren't pushing aces up off at the turn anyway.

This is why I am lost on this hand.

I am confident that I want to raise more than the hero did, if I can say that after seeing the river. We're offering the first guy about 4:1 and the next caller even more. If we're not getting our opponents off of aces up, then we want to get maximum value by raising a lot.

Anyway ... we got what we wanted lots of action and lots of money in the pot ... what ... $600 now? (god, I hate not being able to read OTHER posts while responding) -- so go ahead and shove.

We're not folding our straight for 4:1 or 5:1 or whatever we're getting, we're pushing it. (who really knows how much are in the other stacks? All we know is that they have "over" $300).

The set wasn't folding to our turn push, so if it filled, oh well.
If the two pair filled, it had to include top pair, so it wasn't folding to our turn push either, oh well.

Also, this could be TPTK that turned in TTK ...

It could be two pair with an overpair, too.

That's a baaaaaaaaad reason to shove - "Oh well." Since we played it this way, why wouldn't we save some money? That's just about the worst card that could come off, so shoving is insanity. Shoving will push out every hand, even trips top kicker if the player isn't a moron, that we beat and make every hand that crushes us instacall. Two pair with an overpair wouldn't call a shove, nor should any trips reasonably but AK. Every boat calls, as does every Q10 straight. This is why shoving, or raising the turn big is so much better. Now that we're on the river, we're putting in the majority of our money when we're beat (99% of the time) instead of putting in all of our money on the turn when we're holding the second pure nuts and never drawing dead against one opponent.

Blah!

Really?

Really?!?!?!

Go back to the OP, when we see the turn: "...the sb (who overplays his hands) bets out $45 he gets called by three people."
"who overplays his hands"
"who overplays his hands"
"who overplays his hands"

This COULD LITERALLY BE ANYTHING, eg: QJ.
And the other players know it, so THEY could be calling light.

I shove all in here over and over again.

Again, ask yourself what you're asking me to believe:
First: someone didn't raise one of these pocket pairs pf: AA, JJ, 88, 99?
Second: if someone flopped or turned a set, they checked it and let our straight mature
Third: they're sitting on a set on a board with a lot of developing draws, but they didn't reraise our bet?
Fourth: someone had aces up in this hand with four players in, and didn't defend it against a light caller?

Nah.

If we're beat, it's QT, AND if the QT is as weak as half the people in here, we might be folding it by shoving.

Shove, shove, shove, shove.
We're here to win, right?

I'd have played it harder on the turn to defend against draws that could crack my hand on the river. As it is, I have to agree with mtdesmoines that it's impossible to put either opponenet on QT or a full house since they'd have surely pushed on the turn.

Pretty standard shove..minraising is good for sets.