PokerStars Game #12078151060: Tournament #61297313, $6.00+$0.60 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/09/15 - 18:33:33 (ET)
Table '61297313 1' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: beerpongchik (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: M3ELLE (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: arieldent (1560 in chips)
Seat 4: LadyLuck7777 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: stimdawg137 (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: arroz_feijao (1500 in chips)
arieldent: posts small blind 10
LadyLuck7777: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to arroz_feijao [Kc Ks]
stimdawg137: calls 20
arroz_feijao: raises 60 to 80
beerpongchik: folds
M3ELLE: folds
arieldent: calls 70
LadyLuck7777: calls 60
stimdawg137: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [As 2h 3h]
arieldent: bets 580
M3ELLE is sitting out
LadyLuck7777: calls 580
stimdawg137: calls 580


What should be my play over here? Thanks for any input.


EDIT: 2nd hand so no reads.

Raise more PF.

Fold flop with that much action in front of you.

Congratulate yourself on losing the minimum with KK that early.

How much more do I raise. It is the 2nd hand, one limper I want action with Kings don`t I?

Read forum posting guidelines before you post anymore trainwrecks like this.

Specifically, convert your hands, and this should be posted in the tournament strat section. and I see it was moved.

With the Pokerstars structure, here is how much I like to raise:

In the 1st level, I raise to 5x the BB, adding 1BB for each limper.

In the 2nd level, I raise to 4x the BB, +1BB/limper.

From the 3rd level on, I raise to 3x the BB, +1BB/limper.

If it is a longer MTT, I will switch to 2.5x the BB at some point. I just do this by feel. When the blinds get huge, there will be a certain point where this slightly smaller raise has the same chance of taking the blinds and antes, but saves some chips. This has a lot to do with stack sizes and table texture, so I think it varies.

Then, when I get heads up, I raise to 4x the BB from the small blind. If the SB just completes and I want to raise, I will usually raise to 5x the BB (4BB "on top").

That looks like a pretty clear fold to me.

I don't really mind preflop, but you could make it 100. I don't think it really matters that much though.

I raise to 100 preflop. In the first level of a micro tourney, I make it 100 with 0 or 1 limpers in and add 20 for each additional limper. The flop is an easy peasy fold. No way the ace missed all 4 of them. 0%. Not to mention that the flush draw has you down to a single out.

Pretty much exactly agree with this.





And this.

I agree with all previous posters that this is a clear fold. Think of it this way: either all of these players are crazy, in which case you are probably going to take their money later anyway, or at least one of them is going to have an ace or better.

As for raises early in the tournament: I seem to raise a bit less than most of the previous posters: usually 4xBB in the first level and 3xBB from the second level onwards (and of course roughly +1BB for each limper), and when I want action I regularly raise 3xBB even in the first level when in middle or late position. The main reason is that I like to keep the fluctuations small in this stage.

What I'm wondering: do you guys think this is mainly a matter of what fits ones game best, or are there clear arguments as to why somewhat smaller raises are not optimal in this type of tournament?

OK, sorry for not posting it in the Tourney section. I'm used to the mess that is General. I'll take a look at the posting guidelines, hopefully participating more in the strat forum rather than general will be better for my game. I need to gifure out how to use hand history converter's as well.





Thanks for the input everyone. I'm going to adjust my raises accordingly and see how it goes.

By the way, the turn was a K, everyone checked, the river was a blank, and K5o took the pot, NO ONE had an ace! As some of you mentioned, someone must have hit an A.

People tend to play much looser at the lower limits, so you sometimes need to make bigger raises than you otherwise would to accomplish the same goal. With a hand like KK, the goal is to build the pot but not to invite lots of people into the hand. This is the mistake that many micro limit players often make with big hands (limping or making tiny raises with AA/KK). The ideal scenario for a hand like KK is to raise enough that you get action from one opponent (maybe two). You don't want several people coming along for the ride with speculative hands because that increases the chances that someone will hit the flop hard and crack your Kings.

Insane that there was that much action on the flop and nobody held an Ace!

This I am well aware of, and I am certainly not suggesting minraising or limping with kings. I am more thinking about, say, the difference between 4xBB and 5xBB in early position and 3xBB and 4xBB in later position. What I am wondering is at what point someones playing style becomes important too. For some types of players it is more advantageous to play smaller pots, and I was wondering if this advantage can balance the disadvantage of having a slightly bigger chance of getting multiple opponents.

I guess it is hard to say anything very concrete about this since so many other factors (other player's styles, what happened on previous hands) come into play too. It would be nice, however, if there were some statistics on how much effect certain sizes of raises have. I recall having seen statistical analyses of continuation bets a while ago; does anyone know if something similar exists for pre-flop raises?

I think the common accepted logic is: If you can get a donkey to get up to 200 chips into the middle PF with Ace-rag, how could you not encourage it? It's just like building a big pot PF in O8B preflop with A23x double suited.

I think it really depends on how the table is playing. At one table you can raise 5BB w/ KK and be surprised when you get 2 callers, while at another table raise 3BB and be disappointed when everyone folds. My experience is at the lowest limits, where smallish raises always get action in the early stages, so I find the (3BB+1BB/#limpers) formula works well for raising hands.