The villain in this hand is kmoneyk10. He is very lag from my experiences with playing him. Anyway here is the hand.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 5 Players -

SB: $222.00
BB: $1,055.00
Hero (UTG): $1,106.50
CO: $802.00
BTN: $1,941.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A heart A club (5 Players)
Hero raises to $30.00, CO folds, BTN calls $30.00, SB folds, BB calls $20.00

Flop: ($95) Ks 8c Jc (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $80.00, BB folds, Hero raises to $280.00, BTN raises all-in to $1,911.00, Hero...

i played it backwards on the flop for a reason, thats not the question. With my hand so underrepped on the flop, am I good often enough here getting almost 2 to 1 to call?

Yup.

The B/3B is almost always a huge hand or a huge draw when he leads into you. I'm not totally sure what his range is when you check that flop to him though. You're flipping with his likely draw and you're not drawing well against any made hand that beats yours.

I guess the 2-1 probably makes it a call, but it's close.

FWIW, I really really dislike the check on the flop. You only have one guy left to act, so there is too great of a risk to let it get checked through. I'd prefer that you lead this flop, have him raise and then you can shove and let him make a decision.

I don't mind the C/R but you're doing it to induce a huge pot or to keep a pot very small. If he checks behind you are in keep pot small mode, if he bets it you are in big C/R and can't fold to 3-bet mode.

Once you C/R you are representing a set, or a hand like QQ where you wanted to put max amount of FE on the aggro player, if he doesn't believe set he shoves with a wide variety of hands.

I think this is bare flush draw, bare straight draw, combo of both, or pair + flush draw, or just pair with one good club often enough to call here.

Gross. I think at best you're 50/50. You decide. I think I stick them in the muck unless I know villain is going to do this all day. If villain does this shit all day, I call.

EDIT: Our only advantage here is that our PF bet was pretty mild mannered, so AK might do this a lot. Boils down to the fact that I really need more information to decide here.

You do realize that if he's 50/50 and he's getting 2-1 then it's an instacall, right?

At best. At worst, we're looking for outs in the worst way. Like I said, I would need to know this villain to decide.

Wow, what a gross situation. I would have really liked for you to represent your hand better. I think betting that flop instead of check/raising is the best play. That flop can get a little too tricky with an aggressive oppenant and only one pair. I think that your either crushed or have to dodge a zillion outs. I would fall back on some sort of read of how hes been playing the cash game thus far.

I dont think I could dump this vs. a super lag. Against a TAG or Rock I think it's an instafold, but if he is very laggy, then he can do this with Q9cc 109cc Q10cc etc. A set is unlikely because I don't think he would go up from 280 to 2000. He could have AK as well. I think it's most likely a huge draw or Kojak, and therefore I'd stick it in. Against the big draw you're killing 1 club and have the backdoor nut flush draw, and against KJ (or another two pair) you have a few solid outs. Because you're getting 2:1, I really think it's a no brainer vs. a lag.

is it ever a possibility that my hand is so underrepped on the flop that the villain value shoves KQ or AK here?

I think so, but less so than the likelihood of the others, but I think the Q or A is usually a club.

Sure, but that seems sort of random. If he did have KQ or AK, he's not a very good player. If he did, I guess he only wanted to you call with a huge draw or a hand where he's drawing near or totally dead.

First of all, I think a laggy player would probably have 3-bet pre-flop in position with AK, so it's unlikely he has that.

Value-shoved with KQ? Expecting you to call with what, exactly, that he beats? Does he really think you can call an all-in with QQ here? This is especially true because his raise prices out all the 8- or 9-out draws, so he knows you won't call with those. Any draw that would call his all-in is a draw KQ is not really ahead of anyway.

Unless there's more history and meta-game considerations between you and him that we don't know about, I think this is very rarely just a one-pair hand. It's much more likely to be two pair or some kind of combo draw (we can mostly rule out sets based on the lack of a pre-flop 3-bet, except for maybe 88). Whether calling is profitable depends on how you weight these relative holdings within his range.

For the record, I don't care for the flop check either.

As for the hand, you checked and got what you wanted imo. This is a wide variety of hands I discount AK and JJ though because i think that is 3-bet before the flop from an aggressive player.

I see a straight draw, flush draw, combo draw, or 88. I don't think that third bet on the flop is QK.

How can your hand honestly be "under-repped when you raised PF?

We need to know more about your image to truly make a decision on this hand.

I don't know what villain pushes $2K into this $400 pot with, ... with this board. Maybe he hit a set.

Just becuase you make a standard raise at a SH table doesn't mean you've "repped" your hand. Once he checks that flop, he's underrepping what he's got. Once you c/r, your hand becomes something like AK, KQ, KJ, 88, JJ, KK, AA or something similar. Once he shoves it literally means one of 2 things. Either he can beat most of that (cause he has 2 pair or a set) or he's got the big draw. I don't think your hand is underrepped at all after the flop c/r. Just determine how often he pushes his draw here and then decide if it's worth a little gamble. The pot odds kinda make it look like it is.

1. Like I said, w/o hero's image, it makes this hand much harder to play.

2. Yes, but that goes away with the c/r.

3. Right.

4. Just feels like a big draw ... now to put my finger on why ... I think if villain had a huge made hand like a set, and got c/r'ed, he'd risk a club on the turn and let the hero do the dirty work if there's a blank. I don't think villain can put hero on a draw (unless it's OESFD), because hero c/r'ed.

The logic of the villain letting the Hero do the work for him is terribly flawed and it rarely happens. It's really simple. The hero apparently has a decent hand and he likes it NOW. The villain should want to get the money in NOW. He can't be sure what turn cards the hero will view as good or bad. Waiting until the turn is fine if the board is dry, but on this board, any AKQJT987 or club is a potentially scary card for the hero and should definitely cause the villain to be pushing his set NOW as opposed to later. Since most of the deck looks dangerous in one way or another, the villain should not be slowplaying a set anymore.

As an aside, that's the whole reason to fastplay sets, 2 pair, draws and everything inbetween. It means that when you're pushing your hand at 100mph on a board like this, your opponent will have to guess whether youv'e got a made hand or a draw.

I totally disagree here. If villian plays like this he is playing weak poker. Why would he ever take a risk of a club killing his action on the turn with a set? His bet if it is a set is played perfectly.

I do agree with the OESFD being the most likely draw to make this play.

I agree that the villians hand here is probably a big draw, personally I think as much as 75% of the time its a big draw. Shoving 2k into 400 doesn't make sense with a set because he wouldn't want to lose his customer so easily.

But - his hand is underrepped on the flop, with an image or without. He made a minimal raise preflop, and checked the flop. A big draw is almost always leading when checked to on this flop, and against action that he sees as a made hand (Set, Aces, AK, Two Pairs) he's never folding a big draw and wants to guarantee seeing the last two cards as well as having fold equity against weaker made hands. When I look at the percentages, I think I actually prefer a fold now more than I originally did, but his range could be a lot broader.



Even when you add in two pairs and more draws its still pretty grim looking:



Even at best it's sort of a tweener:

OK, so what does villain smooth call a 3xBB bet PF with, bet 8/9ths pot with, and push a c/r with? If I'm forced to define this hand for an unknown villain, I think it's OESFD or a set of 8s. If I'm hero, I don't like my aces against either, frankly.

The villain easily shows up with any one of the hands that has been described as in his range in the last pokerstove thing by NoBBiR, except for K8o, which just seems unlikely. Other hands that should be included are reasonable combinations of the pair and flush draw such as KQcc, KTcc and K9cc, which are hands that people like to play.

Acid's right, that range was kind of silly, I was running out the door to class, so this one makes more sense. Still I think its 50/50 as to calling or folding, I would probably muck it.

You gotta take out ATcc and A9cc from your range since we have the Ac in our hand. I'd replace them with QTo and T9o becuase he will show up with hands that aren't the combo draw sometimes.

Definitely agree, just because a combo draw is possible doesn't mean he has it, he's likely to have just one of the draws IMO.

Yeah, it's "likely" he has (x) hand. However, it's possible we're way behind in this hand. Think it boils down to the fact that I just don't like pushing all our chips in with one pair when we c/r and got rrai for (5)*pot.

What did we C/R lag for then? To try and get one extra bet with AA on the flop? Doesn't make much sense to me, I'm not folding here unless it's clear to me that I'm beat, which it isn't IMO. Likely wasn't the word I wanted to use, but I was in a hurry, I meant quite possible, as in it's certainly a part of his bet/3bet range.

We don't C/R to go broke though. Sometimes we need to reconsider.

Hmmm if you take this line you basically cant fold ever.

Cant believe so many people advocating a fold. Our line looks so FOS since we just risked having the flop checked thru on a really drawy board. Id snap call and be pretty happy about it.

Btw i just dont think people understand how much more aggressive 5/10 sh plays then lower stakes or live games.

It has really nothing to do with that. When you get right down to it, our hand looks like AK to the villian. Essentially though it's the same hand and he still shoved. It's almost always a huge draw, that's pretty obvious. I think based on how this was played its not a fold ever though as you said because we've set a price against those hands - but it's reasonable to think about folding it to this kind of action. If we didn't have the Ace of clubs, then I think it'd be easier to get away from.

We're getting 2-1. The board is super drawy. We have an overpair. It's pretty stanrdard to get it in here. Having the Ac makes a little difference, but it wouldn't change anything if we had 2 red aces becuase that'd make it even more likely that we should call since there'd be more combos of NFDs that he could be pushing.

The ONLY thing that can convince me to call this is the easter egg Roberts put in the OP: villain is super LAG. I think this is some kind of big draw. And if it is a big draw, we're stealing an out and can catch runner runner in a couple ways, so maybe if we're a luckbox we can call this. Me ... I don't make these calls, because I'm usually behind and I never catch up.

If I did call, my dream hand is for the villain to be holding AK.

I really don't know what to do with this hand. I even railed a couple $5/$10 tables on FT last night for about an hour while I played online (I know, I rarely play online, but I did it last night and doubled up -- YAY!).

Anyway, I didn't get that $5/$10 was all that aggressive overall. I still think this is a fold.

Results? I think the camps pretty much have stated their opinions

Why do we need results when we have a perfectly circular argument going?

did you answer your own question with a question? my brain hurts.

Then don't fire up a fatty first thing in the morning.

Hey I am responsible adult now... I have a Monday-Friday job and everything.

IE no smoking before work

LOL, there's always nights and weekends, I guess.

THANK GOD! this job drives me to drink... literally

Working for the man sucks.
That's why they have to pay you to show up every day.

That's all the more reason to smoke up before work ;-)



And now we have a perfectly circular arguement about smoking pot before, and after work, and how working sucks. I for one think that the topic has degenerated. RESULTS!

Yeah, results would be good. I can't take the suspense.

results:
i obviously called since im a station, and he had had 888. turn was jack giving me hope, but it didnt happen. i just thought the hand was very interesting.

and yes, 5 10 NL SH is very very agg, folding in general is bad. my kind of game