Just checked the EV graph for the match, it's pretty LOL. Maybe I didn't really outplay Erich Kollmann after all.

$20k above expectation in 863 hands.

Wow.

From page before...

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $135.30
UTG+1: $25.50
Hero: $93
Button: $35.35
SB: $71.20
BB: $50.05

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 7 T 8 A
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, Button folds, SB raises to $5, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: K 8 3 ($15.5, 3 players)
SB bets $10.5, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: T ($36.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $34.75, SB calls.

River: 6 ($106, 2 players)
SB is all-in $20.95, Hero calls.

Villain has:
A K 8 Q

Am I the only one that thinks villian totally effed up the turn here?

i think he figured he had the hand locked up so he was hoping you'd bluff

So why not CR the turn since I did bet?

he has a disease that makes him slowplay in weird spots?

i just folded kk24rainbow on the button ON PURPOSE

To a push?

to a normal mp open!

i was in my last orbit of a session once 2 out of 2 donks left/sat out and the guy raising seemed decent

i'm not entirely sure if absolutely crap kings have much value in a game with good players, but it still felt like a gross fold

after a pretty awful session I put myself on a 7 day exclusion from pokerstars. when i return i'll probably be grinding 50 and 100plo to rebuild. i'm curious if the other plo players here would like to get together and do sweat sessions, study hands together, share aim names, and whatnot? nothing formal, but the only person i talk to about poker lately is antistuff and since i think the aim sweat sessions have been very productive so far and would like to expand on that

...

oh plo I missed you so........


Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players


Hero (BTN): $50.00
SB: $87.60
BB: $21.05
UTG: $101.90
MP: $50.00
CO: $50.75

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with 4 K A Q
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, SB raises to $5.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12.00) 7 T J (2 players)
SB bets $8.50, Hero raises to $37.50, SB calls $29

Turn: ($87.00) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $44.35 all in, Hero calls $6.75 all in

River: ($100.50) 4

Final Pot: $100.50
Hero shows 4 K A Q (a straight, King high)
SB shows K 3 Q A (a flush, Ace high)
SB wins $97.50
(Rake: $3.00)

however, obv still a profitable game when guys do this


Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN): $50.00
SB: $132.95
BB: $53.65
UTG: $50.00
MP: $60.20
CO: $20.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with J Q J T
UTG checks, 1 fold, CO checks, Hero raises to $2.75, 1 fold, BB calls $2.25, UTG calls $2.75, CO calls $2.75

Flop: ($11.25) 9 2 J (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $5.60, CO folds, Hero raises to $28.05, BB folds, UTG raises to $47.25 all in, Hero calls $19.20 all in

Turn: ($105.75) 4

River: ($105.75) 3

Final Pot: $105.75
Hero shows J Q J T (three of a kind, Jacks)
UTG shows A 9 A K (a pair of Aces)
Hero wins $102.75
(Rake: $3.00)

Bet that turn brought huge shouts of "NO DIAMOND!" from the bdc poker den.

The worst is when you're running like shit and you see that turn and you then EXPECT to see the diamond on the river...lol

listen here mr run good and rub it in our faces, it gets worse. i see that flop an expect to see running diamonds.

run good and rub it in your faces?!!? didn't you see the hand ABOVE that where i made a great raise on the flop, turned the nuts only to be splitting anyway and then lost to the obv river flush??? lol

PTO has me playing 27.95/15.06/(1.46 with PF aggression, 2.60 w/o). Anyone know what that means for PLO?

Those are VERY solid numbers for plo. You could maybe tighten the gap between vpip and pfr (down on vpip and up on pfr) but that's nitpicking on my part -- they are good numbers.

Those stats definitely look very solid.

I am 22/8/3 since forever.

awesome, thanks. my stake specific stats show me with a closer pfr to vpip as i go higher, as i get to limp after people a ton @ 25 and 50plo, but i'm closer to 30/21 from 100plo+. i played a tougher game last night and ran 23/18, so i suspect i play a more sound preflop strat depending on how good my opponents are

2 questions:
1. Is there a way I convert hand history from poker tracker?
2. Thoughts on the turn check/call? I've been playing with expulse a lot lately and he seems super aggro and knows I'm very aggro and is somewhat likely to pay off the river if one of my draws hits if he has 2pair+

Hand #55254598-32724 at Raceland (Pot Limit Omaha)
Started at 13/Sep/08 01:51:12

lordbyron_44 is at seat 0 with $292.85.
ROBBBIGGUB is at seat 1 with $239.25.
DoWnWaRdSpIrL is at seat 2 with $10.85.
expulse is at seat 3 with $90.50.
aruco2008 is at seat 4 with $57.50.
AppleGreenTea is at seat 5 with $350.75.
The button is at seat 4.

AppleGreenTea posts the small blind of $.50.
lordbyron_44 posts the big blind of $1.

lordbyron_44: -- -- -- --
ROBBBIGGUB: Qh As Qs Th
DoWnWaRdSpIrL: -- -- -- --
expulse: -- -- -- --
aruco2008: -- -- -- --
AppleGreenTea: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:
ROBBBIGGUB raises to $3.50. DoWnWaRdSpIrL folds.
expulse calls. aruco2008 folds. AppleGreenTea
calls. lordbyron_44 folds.

Flop (board: Jh Kc 7s):
AppleGreenTea checks. ROBBBIGGUB bets $9. expulse
calls. AppleGreenTea folds.

Turn (board: Jh Kc 7s 2h):
ROBBBIGGUB checks. expulse bets $29.50. ROBBBIGGUB
calls.

River (board: Jh Kc 7s 2h 9d):
ROBBBIGGUB bets $88.50. expulse goes all-in for
$48.50. ROBBBIGGUB is returned $40 (uncalled).

Showdown:

ROBBBIGGUB shows Qh As Qs Th.
ROBBBIGGUB has Qh Th Jh Kc 9d: straight, king high.
expulse shows 7d Ad 7c 6s.
expulse has 7d 7c Jh Kc 7s: three sevens.

Hand #55254598-32724 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $185.50.
ROBBBIGGUB wins $182.50 with straight, king high.
----------------------------------------------------------------

fking omaha

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $37.65
UTG+1: $140.20
CO: $78.90
Hero: $100
SB: $42.75
BB: $187.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with K A T 6
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises to $5.5, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: J 9 Q ($33, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $33, 4 folds, CO raises all-in $73.4, Hero calls.

Turn: J ($179.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $179.8)


River: 8 ($179.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $179.8)


Results:
Final pot: $179.8
CO showed 6d Ah Kh Ad
Hero showed Ks As Tc 6c

I think FTP is apologising from me for the whole september. Probably one of the biggest pots i played on $100 plo.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.5/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $260.15
UTG+1: $76.85
CO: $195
Button: $554.25
SB: $0
BB: $265.20

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with T A A J
Hero raises to $3, UTG+1 calls, CO raises to $13, Button calls, BB folds, Hero raises to $59, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 2 T 6 ($181.5, 4 players)
Hero bets $172, CO calls all-in $139, Button calls.

Turn: 2 ($664.5, 3 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $598.5, Sidepot 1: $66)
Hero is all-in $32.15, Button calls.

River: 9 ($728.8, 2 players + 2 all-in - Main pot: $598.5, Sidepot 1: $130.3)


Results:
Final pot: $728.8
[color=#ffffff]Button showed Kh 4h 4c Qs
[color=#ffffff]Hero showed Ts Ac As Jd
[color=#ffffff]CO showed 7c Kd 6d Tc

I'm not letting this go a full month with no posts.

Dear Simo ,

Please play and post more often.

Best Regards
Bud

In the last 5 years, I think I've played more than 10k hands in a month twice, or at most three times.

Sigh. I think it may be a problem.

Play heads up NLHE. It is a fun game.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $48.30
UTG+1: $10.65
CO: $16.95
Hero: $22.90
SB: $13.20
BB: $35.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 6 Q T T
2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: T A 8 ($1, 4 players)
SB bets $0.5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.45, SB calls.

Turn: 3 ($5.9, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5.65, SB raises all-in $10.5, Hero calls.

River: 2 ($26.9, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $26.9)


Results:
Final pot: $26.9
(small blind) showed [Ts 2c 8d 8h] and lost with three of a kind, Eights

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $24.90
UTG+1: $9.60
CO: $41.60
Button: $6.40
Hero: $39.35
BB: $17.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T 4 Q Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.85, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: J 8 5 ($3.65, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1, CO folds, Button raises all-in $5.55, Hero raises to $21.15, UTG+1 folds.
Uncalled bets: $15.6 returned to Hero.

Turn: 6 ($15.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $15.75)


River: 6 ($15.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $15.75)


Results:
Final pot: $15.75
(button) mucked [Qs Jh 9s 9c]

PokerStars Game #21363946447: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/10/20 22:19:12 ET
Table 'Lameia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: JGLAMMEIER ($15.20 in chips)
Seat 2: xxcommon ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 3: ererevsym ($61.45 in chips)
Seat 4: madman25b ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 5: L.TAYLOR ($28.95 in chips)
JGLAMMEIER: posts small blind $0.10
xxcommon: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ererevsym [Td Js 8d 4d]
ererevsym: calls $0.25
madman25b: calls $0.25
L.TAYLOR: calls $0.25
JGLAMMEIER: raises $1 to $1.25
xxcommon: raises $3.25 to $4.50
ererevsym: raises $10.75 to $15.25
madman25b: folds
L.TAYLOR: folds
JGLAMMEIER: calls $13.95 and is all-in
xxcommon: calls $2.15 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.05) returned to ererevsym
*** FLOP *** [Jd 2s 3d]
*** TURN *** [Jd 2s 3d] [7s]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 2s 3d 7s] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JGLAMMEIER: shows [Ks Kh 9h 4s] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
ererevsym: shows [Td Js 8d 4d] (three of a kind, Jacks)
ererevsym collected $16.25 from side pot
xxcommon: mucks hand
ererevsym collected $19.45 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.55 Main pot $19.45. Side pot $16.25. | Rake $1.85
Board [Jd 2s 3d 7s Jh]
Seat 1: JGLAMMEIER (small blind) showed [Ks Kh 9h 4s] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 2: xxcommon (big blind) mucked [2h 6c Ah Ac]
Seat 3: ererevsym showed [Td Js 8d 4d] and won ($35.70) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 4: madman25b folded before Flop
Seat 5: L.TAYLOR (button) folded before Flop

KK94 DS win 23.53% tie .02% EE .235
AA26 DS win 47.08% tie 0% EE .471
10J84 dd win 29.37% tie .2% EE .294 in case any were curious

Whats the metagame calculation?

metagame +1000%........lol

I did find it interesting you were ahead of the KKds hand though

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $133.85
UTG+1: $74.20
CO: $29.90
Button: $181.30
SB: $35.20
BB: $100

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K T 3 T
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: A J T ($3.5, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG+1 calls, BB folds.

Turn: Q ($9.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, UTG+1 calls.

River: A ($23.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $12.75, UTG+1 raises to $39, Hero raises all-in $122.85, UTG+1 calls all-in $24.2.
Uncalled bets: $59.65 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $149.9
[color=#ffffff]Hero showed Ks Ts 3h Th
[color=#ffffff]UTG+1 mucks Ad Ah 5h 8c

^^^^^^^WOW!^^^^^^^^

sikk

---

PokerStars Game #21659181935: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/10/31 23:33:46 ET
Table 'Shura III' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: bigdaddy516 ($51.75 in chips)
Seat 2: abuelo87 ($10.70 in chips)
Seat 3: barak_omaha ($98.05 in chips)
Seat 4: TOROMA ($25 in chips)
Seat 5: stuptq ($44.20 in chips)
Seat 6: ererevsym ($35.95 in chips)
abuelo87: posts small blind $0.10
barak_omaha: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ererevsym [Qh Ah 5d Ad]
TOROMA: calls $0.25
stuptq: calls $0.25
ererevsym: raises $1.10 to $1.35
bigdaddy516: folds
abuelo87: calls $1.25
barak_omaha: raises $1.10 to $2.45
TOROMA: calls $2.20
stuptq: calls $2.20
ererevsym: raises $11.15 to $13.60
abuelo87: calls $9.35 and is all-in
barak_omaha: raises $42.80 to $56.40
TOROMA: calls $22.55 and is all-in
stuptq: calls $41.75 and is all-in
ererevsym: calls $22.35 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($12.20) returned to barak_omaha
*** FLOP *** [Jh 6s 4d]
*** TURN *** [Jh 6s 4d] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 6s 4d 2s] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
barak_omaha: shows [Qd 6d 7d 8h] (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
stuptq: shows [Qc Jd 5s 9s] (a flush, Queen high)
stuptq collected $16.50 from side pot-3
ererevsym: mucks hand
stuptq collected $32.85 from side pot-2
TOROMA: mucks hand
stuptq collected $56.85 from side pot-1
abuelo87: mucks hand
stuptq collected $50.85 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $160.05 Main pot $50.85. Side pot-1 $56.85. Side pot-2 $32.85. Side pot-3 $16.50. | Rake $3
Board [Jh 6s 4d 2s Qs]
Seat 1: bigdaddy516 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: abuelo87 (small blind) mucked [8s 6h 5c 8d]
Seat 3: barak_omaha (big blind) showed [Qd 6d 7d 8h] and lost with two pair, Queens and Sixes
Seat 4: TOROMA mucked [Kc 4h Kd 3h]
Seat 5: stuptq showed [Qc Jd 5s 9s] and won ($157.05) with a flush, Queen high
Seat 6: ererevsym mucked [Qh Ah 5d Ad]

My preflop raises aren't getting any respect. Do you think I should move up in limits?

Absolutely.

Deffo, those play money donks don't give you ANY credit.

Ok guys i am back!

Full Tilt Poker Game #8955376790: Table Hyde (deep 6) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 16:38:50 ET - 2008/11/13
Seat 1: captian torgar ($95.50)
Seat 2: Kemppaanen ($105.45)
Seat 3: Kei-fat ($371.95)
Seat 4: ElWazzo ($45.30)
Seat 5: Lee Watkinson ($264.25)
Seat 6: bundys ($403.80)
Kei-fat posts the small blind of $0.50
ElWazzo posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bundys [Ah Ad Qh Tc]
Lee Watkinson raises to $3.50
bundys raises to $12
captian torgar folds
Kemppaanen folds
Kei-fat folds
ElWazzo calls $11
Lee Watkinson has 15 seconds left to act
Lee Watkinson raises to $20.50
bundys has 15 seconds left to act
bundys has requested TIME
bundys raises to $74
ElWazzo folds
Lee Watkinson raises to $234.50
bundys: lol
bundys has 15 seconds left to act
bundys: i dont wanna flip for 250
bundys has requested TIME
Kei-fat: u have
bundys raises to $395
Lee Watkinson: i dont wanna be out of position
Lee Watkinson calls $29.75, and is all in
bundys shows [Ah Ad Qh Tc]
Lee Watkinson shows [8d As Ac 8s]
Uncalled bet of $130.75 returned to bundys
*** FLOP *** [Kh Td 4h]
*** TURN *** [Kh Td 4h] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [Kh Td 4h 7h] [9s]
bundys shows a flush, Ace high
Lee Watkinson shows a pair of Aces
bundys wins the pot ($538) with a flush, Ace high
Lee Watkinson: nh
Lee Watkinson is sitting out
Kemppaanen: wow
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $541 | Rake $3
Board: [Kh Td 4h 7h 9s]
Seat 1: captian torgar didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Kemppaanen (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Kei-fat (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: ElWazzo (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Lee Watkinson showed [8d As Ac 8s] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: bundys showed [Ah Ad Qh Tc] and won ($538) with a flush, Ace high

So I played a $5 plo tonight...

Was down to the final 4 and this came up...thoughts???

Full Tilt Poker Game #8965812141: $5 + $0.50 Tournament (68492178), Table 10 - 2000/4000 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6:13:38 ET - 2008/11/14
Seat 3: HotNakedChick (62,856)
Seat 4: PokerSweetie123 (129,466)
Seat 7: claptonic (123,789)
Seat 8: Kemosabe771 (46,889)
HotNakedChick posts the small blind of 2,000
PokerSweetie123 posts the big blind of 4,000
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PokerSweetie123 [5c Ts 7s 9h]
claptonic calls 4,000
Kemosabe771 calls 4,000
HotNakedChick has 15 seconds left to act
HotNakedChick calls 2,000
PokerSweetie123 checks
*** FLOP *** [8s 6c 2s]
HotNakedChick has 15 seconds left to act
HotNakedChick bets 4,000
PokerSweetie123 raises to 28,000
claptonic has 15 seconds left to act
claptonic calls 28,000
Kemosabe771 raises to 42,889, and is all in
HotNakedChick raises to 58,856, and is all in
PokerSweetie123 raises to 125,466, and is all in
claptonic has 15 seconds left to act
claptonic calls 91,789, and is all in
PokerSweetie123 shows [5c Ts 7s 9h]
claptonic shows [Kh Tc 3s As]
Kemosabe771 shows [3d 3h 6h 6d]
HotNakedChick shows [7h 2h 8d 8h]
Uncalled bet of 5,677 returned to PokerSweetie123
*** TURN *** [8s 6c 2s] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [8s 6c 2s Kc] [4s]
PokerSweetie123 shows a flush, Ten high
claptonic shows a flush, Ace high
claptonic wins side pot #2 (121,866) with a flush, Ace high
HotNakedChick shows three of a kind, Eights
claptonic wins side pot #1 (47,901) with a flush, Ace high
Kemosabe771 shows three of a kind, Sixes
claptonic wins the main pot (187,556) with a flush, Ace high
Kemosabe771 stands up
HotNakedChick stands up
The blinds are now 2,500/5,000
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 357,323 Main pot 187,556. Side pot 1 47,901. Side pot 2 121,866. | Rake 0
Board: [8s 6c 2s Kc 4s]
Seat 3: HotNakedChick (small blind) showed [7h 2h 8d 8h] and lost with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: PokerSweetie123 (big blind) showed [5c Ts 7s 9h] and lost with a flush, Ten high
Seat 7: claptonic showed [Kh Tc 3s As] and won (357,323) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: Kemosabe771 (button) showed [3d 3h 6h 6d] and lost with three of a kind, Sixes


Needless to say, left me with 1 BB (5k) left for heads up. I came back and took a 200k-160k lead...then we got it all in on A35 flop i had 24xx and he had AKQ3 and turn Q river Q...out a few hands later.

Nice, but you should have taken this opportunity to say something awful about his ugly wife. Or atleast his stupid chimps.

I'm sure you all read 4, but this is just retarded.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/38/omaha...dy-well-341480/

Seriously?

Run better...only ~30ptbb/100

Yesterday I won a 234 person $8 plo on PS for 383.77

Feels good to ship one...1st in awhile...

easy game

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $101.50
UTG+1: $174
Hero: $166.20
Button: $215.25
SB: $133.05
BB: $100

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 4 5 A A
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.5, Button folds, SB calls, BB raises to $14, Hero raises to $49, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 7 9 Q ($101.5, 2 players)
BB is all-in $54.5, Hero calls.

Turn: 7 ($210.5, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


River: 7 ($210.5, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


Results:
Final pot: $210.5
[color="#ffffff"]Hero showed 4c 5c Ac Ah
[color="#ffffff"]BB showed Th Js As 8h

how to play quads


Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $81.70
UTG+1: $347
CO: $175.05
Button: $106.50
SB: $194.50
Hero: $184.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A A A A
3 folds, Button raises to $3.5, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 7 Q 9 ($7.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero calls.

Turn: 4 ($17.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $11, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $11 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $17.5

raise preflop, imo.

Does my thoughts on the AAxx hand thread make sense? I've been eagerly anticipating a rebuttal. That hand just seems so much deeper than a standard shove...idk it has been bugging me for a week now.

hah, I see what you were getting at there, I just think you're better to shove when if you get called, it's more likely you have the best hand and others are drawing. Even you have to admit if you get called on the turn by anything, you're pretty much fked.