Can I jam my wheel draw against a likely made 9 here??


Hand #3127672350
*Razz* ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25

*3rd Street* - (1.60 SB)

morgajak: xx xx 6c___completes___raises
yeffy: 2h 3s Ah___raises___calls
ElDiablo444: xx xx 6d___folds
IncubusFan: xx xx Qc___folds
DuttyWinin: xx xx Kc___*brings-in*___folds
Delsol15: xx xx 6h___calls___folds
jaytyme: xx xx 8c___folds
TheOutlaw1: xx xx Ts___folds

*4th Street* - (8.10 SB)

morgajak: xx xx 6c 9s___calls
yeffy: 2h 3s Ah 5c___*bets*

*5th Street* - (5.05 BB)

morgajak: xx xx 6c 9s 2s___*bets*
yeffy: 2h 3s Ah 5c As___calls

*6th Street* - (7.05 BB)

morgajak: xx xx 6c 9s 2s 3d___*bets*___calls
yeffy: 2h 3s Ah 5c As 4d___raises

*River* - (11.05 BB)

morgajak: xx xx 6c 9s 2s 3d xx___*checks*___folds
yeffy: 2h 3s Ah 5c As 4d Js___bets

*Total pot:* (11.05 BB - $22.10)

no reason to jam 5th street with 2 aces showing and the 2 could have been a great card for him at the time. both players played fine, not sure why there's a need to post this?

I jam with the wheel draw if he has a 7 or an 8 showing with the made 9. As is, I do not jam because 3 sixes are dead (which you need to improve) and he could be drawing to a 6 which would make you a dog in the hand.

I cap this hand from the start. You're ahead. GO GO GO. Why just call when he's got the six showing your 123 start?

Add a little deception. If we both catch good I can get a double bet in on 4th or better yet on 5th. When he hit the 9 I knew I needed to bet..so maybe I should have been more aggro on 3rd.

123 is not ahead of his hand if he has any two cards in the hole below a 6. Any such hands are about a 54% favorite over ABC in this situation.

but its 1235 not just 123

You said on the start on 3rd street. If you had said 4th street, I would have had a different response.

If he has a made 9 with wheel cards under, you're a dog on 5th. No reason to push the action. If he's paired, you're way ahead, but he may fold. I cant imagine given the action on third that he's got anything other than wheel cards under. I like your line.

There's every reason to jam in a situation where you are favoured to win the pot heads up. And in general a wheel draw (who cares if two Aces are showing or if 5th was a Q) is a favourite against a made 9, although this case is a little closer since it's a 9-6.

Yes, cap 3rd if you can.



I have a hard time with this. You're saying 246 is a favourite over A23?!? Or is that very specific to this hand with the other 6s dead? That I could maaayybe believe, but I'm at work and can't number crunch it myself.


If I had history on this guy and knew that he would play some weaker hands agressively, I would raise 5th, but not cap it if he raised back to me. Now that we're paired we likely have position on the next card, and a raise here on 5th could buy us a free look at 7th.

On third we are behind most of his hands, even 765 and 865, so I think calling the 3-bet on third is better than capping. After looking at these numbers maybe we shouldnt even be raising his complete on 3rd, but Ill leave that to more experienced razz players to decide.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2920208
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah 2h 3s - 6c 5c 7d / 6h 6d 8c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s Ah 2h 243608 48.72 256309 51.26 83 0.02 0.487
6c 5c 7d 256309 51.26 243608 48.72 83 0.02 0.513

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2920212
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah 2h 3s - 6c 5c 8d / 6h 6d 8c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s Ah 2h 247632 49.53 252287 50.46 81 0.02 0.495
6c 5c 8d 252287 50.46 247632 49.53 81 0.02 0.505

cap third. cap 5th. you'll end up getting a ton of money in and winning a huge pot when you hit, plus you're only a SLIGHT dog on any street.

Some more interesting odds from twodimes.

On 5th even if he has a 87 in the hole he is the favourite so by raising we are assuming that he could have a pair a significant portion of the time and from the action in the hand it seems that he was very capable of playing 5th like that when he paired his 2. Also if we are raising it should be almost purely for value since if we raise our hand is pretty transparent. This would be a very good time to have a pokerstove for razz.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2920856
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah as 5c 3s 2h - 9s 6c 2s 8d 7d / 6d 6h 8c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 5c Ah 2h 248331 49.67 251669 50.33 0 0.00 0.497
9s 2s 6c 8d 7d 251669 50.33 248331 49.67 0 0.00 0.503

We are a very big favourite if he has a pair in the whole though.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2920873
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah as 5c 3s 2h - 9s 6c 2s 2d ad / 6d 6h 8c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 5c Ah 2h 325957 65.19 173760 34.75 283 0.06 0.652
9s 2s 6c Ad 2d 173760 34.75 325957 65.19 283 0.06 0.348

Without looking more closely at the significance of the 2 dead 6s I would advice you to just pump the pot as much as possible throughout the hand, but after looking at the numbers I think you played the hand really well.

cap 3 and raise 5, you can't possibly be more than a very slight dog on either street

Even though we are never more than a slight dog on 3rd we are never a favourite either. I dont get why so many want to cap 3rd. Its not for value and its not keeping the pot small. Is there another reason that we should be capping?

246 is a favorite because of the dead cards. The two dead sixes are big cards to have dead because they both improve your hand and reduce the cards left that will pair him. Run it on two dimes if you want but the 246 is roughly a 54% fav I believe.

Capping 3rd is -EV for two reasons. First, your a dog in the hand and therefor every dollar you put in the pot, you are giving money. Second, it makes it completely obvious what you have. Here is an example of what I mean:

Say I am the player with the 6 and I have 24 in the hole. I 3 bet because, unless you have the case 6 in the hole, I am ahead of ANY 3 cards that you have. Now, when you 4 bet, I can really only put you on A23 or A24. Now lets say 4th street comes and you catch a 2 while I catch a J. You lead out and I can know for 95% certainty that you just paired. I will raise my jack here as a 60-40 favorite. Now, as soon as you call, its completely transparent what your hand is.

Now, if you only call instead and then you catch the 2 on 4th, I may fold my hand because its likely that have a monster draw. I still may call to peal off one more card since I'm only about a 2-1 dog and the pot will be laying me 5.5/1 or so. However, if you catch good on 5th, even if I catch great, I have no choice but to fold.

I play a ton of razz and wouldn't make the 2nd raise with A23. I like to slowplay these types of hands so that it looks like I have monsters even when I catch pair cards. Also, by not pushing tiny edges in a game where you can often get people giving you money as a huge dog or even completely dead, you will greatly lower your per session variance.

i agree that capping third gives our hand away, but he will not have hands like 6-4-3 or 8-6-5 every time, in which case it's about even money when considering all possibilities...you are trying to build a pot with this hand

on 5, by showing the open pair and raising anyway, you now tell him we have a big draw...if he paired the 2 we are a big favorite, if he has a made 9 with wheel cards in there we are only a slight dog...again, about an even-money situation all things considered, and taking control of the hand in this spot is better than just calling